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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 354 of 591 (792143)
10-05-2016 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by Tangle
10-05-2016 10:55 AM


Re: Responsibility
If we talk of pychopaths, they are programmed to react in a totally different way than you. They follow their 'conscience' in a way the rest of us dislike intensely. Why did your god create psychopaths?
Does this relate to the broader philosophical questions such as
  • If God exists, why did He create evil?
    I believe that God allowed the possibility of evil---only to allow free will. Lucifer actualized evil by choosing it.
    As for humans, we are aware of both extremes. We are aware of when we do evil and when we choose good.
    Psychopaths, on the other hand have no conscience by nature the way that normal humans do.
    Thus you raise a good question. Why would God allow such a mutation to exist?
    Is there any evidence that humans grow stronger through facing adversity in life?
    Is the entire concept of satan not the story of how humanity gets stronger by resisting? (Weight lifting involves muscles growing through applied resistance)
    Is satan a necessary "mutation" in human development?
    Or...again..is it all a bunch of bollocks?
    All we know is that psychopaths exist.
    It is up to us to decide how to handle this reality.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 353 by Tangle, posted 10-05-2016 10:55 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 355 by Tangle, posted 10-05-2016 11:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 368 of 591 (792307)
    10-07-2016 11:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 367 by ringo
    10-07-2016 11:40 AM


    Fact or Fiction?
    GDR,to ringo writes:
    You are an atheist but let's assume that you look at the Gospel accounts and you come to the conclusion that Jesus was resurrected.
    ringo writes:
    Nobody who reads the gospels objectively is going to reach that conclusion. The resurrection is one of the red flags that tells us the story is fiction. Like the talking snake in Genesis, you might as well have a flashing neon sign to tell you not to take it literally.
    I object!
    Are you saying that only atheists/critical thinkers read objectively? In this case, objectivity equates with unbelief. Some folks cant see the forest for the trees.
    I did not reach my conclusion regarding belief simply by reading. I would also argue in favor of selective bias...from everyone.
    The bottom line is either you believe or you don't. Neither decision makes you superior to the other guys.
    A person sees what they want to see. Some see Paul as a guy who is selling his product. Others,upon reading the texts, conclude that Paul was a man changed by an unexplained experience.
    Some see Jesus as simply a good teacher. Others see in Jesus confirmation of their belief/faith.
    He who has an ear let him hear. He who has an opinion should simply write it down, I suppose.
    I recommend that everyone look at the big picture. There is no definite conclusion regarding interpretation of the Bible nor is there any agreement on what a Christian actually is and what they are expected to do. I saw an answer in the Big Picture. Others may see only questions or inconclusive interpretation. Still others may have reached a conclusion different from mine.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 367 by ringo, posted 10-07-2016 11:40 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 370 by ringo, posted 10-08-2016 11:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 369 of 591 (792384)
    10-08-2016 11:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 366 by Tangle
    10-07-2016 4:07 AM


    Re: God and suffering
    Tangle writes:
    I HAVE read the gospel and I conclude that it's a total fabrication. What's more I've read history and science so I know the evidence not just the propaganda.
    Then you are without excuse.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 366 by Tangle, posted 10-07-2016 4:07 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 371 by Tangle, posted 10-08-2016 2:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 380 by Aussie, posted 10-11-2016 9:48 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 374 of 591 (792431)
    10-09-2016 8:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 373 by GDR
    10-09-2016 6:23 PM


    Objectivity and Subjectivity
    I thought I would focus on these two term for a moment.
    ringo writes:
    Nobody who reads the gospels objectively is going to reach that conclusion....
    GDR writes:
    Frankly, I objectively, after reading both the pros and cons, came to the conclusion that the most reasonable conclusion was that Jesus was resurrected.
    Difference Between Objective and Subjective
    quote:
    Objective is a statement that is completely unbiased. It is not touched by the speaker’s previous experiences or tastes. It is verifiable by looking up facts or performing mathematical calculations.
    Subjective is a statement that has been colored by the character of the speaker or writer. It often has a basis in reality, but reflects the perspective through with the speaker views reality. It cannot be verified using concrete facts and figures.
    Based on that definition, belief should only be subjective. If a large group of individuals share a subjective belief, however, it would be under consideration as an objective (Object of our Faith=Jesus)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 373 by GDR, posted 10-09-2016 6:23 PM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 375 by jar, posted 10-09-2016 9:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 378 by GDR, posted 10-10-2016 3:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 383 by ringo, posted 10-11-2016 11:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 387 of 591 (792628)
    10-12-2016 9:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 380 by Aussie
    10-11-2016 9:48 AM


    Re: God and suffering
    My intention was not to judge or threaten Tangle. Perhaps what I mean to say is that he actually has an excuse. I certainly don't wish to be branded as a goat.
    According to jar, goats are actually the ones without an excuse.
    However, why would God judge a believer so harshly and simply let an unbeliever in the door?
    Is there not or should there not be some standard or is God simply and hypothetically letting everyone in the door?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 380 by Aussie, posted 10-11-2016 9:48 AM Aussie has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 394 by Tangle, posted 10-12-2016 10:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 388 of 591 (792629)
    10-12-2016 9:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 381 by jar
    10-11-2016 10:23 AM


    Sheep,Goats,and steel cut Oats
    jar writes:
    ... the Goats are those who did do for Jesus but only for Jesus...
    Actually wouldn't the goats be doing only for themselves?
    It would be my contention that the goats were not putting in work out of obedience to the Spirit but, rather, were only showing off to gain worldly acclaim.
    Additionally, if the sheep that got let in the door were actually clueless of Gods existence,nature, and rules...they would have an excuse!
    Thus I stand corrected.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 381 by jar, posted 10-11-2016 10:23 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 390 by jar, posted 10-12-2016 9:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 389 of 591 (792630)
    10-12-2016 9:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 379 by Tangle
    10-10-2016 5:41 PM


    Re: God and suffering
    Tangle writes:
    Altruistic behaviour is found amongst members of the same family - it doesn't stop them killing and eating other species or, in human terms, killing other tribes. It's only our social institutions that have stopped us wiping each other out.
    In other words, the U.N. and modern "diplomacy"?
    jar writes:
    The Sheep are those who didn't do for Jesus but did feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comforted the sorrowful, healed the sick...
    Does this mean the hungry,naked, sorrowful, and sick in our own tribe or does it emphasize helping the other tribes?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 379 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2016 5:41 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 392 by jar, posted 10-12-2016 10:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 393 by Tangle, posted 10-12-2016 10:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 391 of 591 (792632)
    10-12-2016 10:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 379 by Tangle
    10-10-2016 5:41 PM


    Good and Potential Evil
    Tangle writes:
    Why does all life have to compete for survival with other life? We'd still have free will, why create a world of suffering and competition?
  • Some would argue that we ourselves chose such a world through the initial action of disobedience, though that brings up the question of empathy and foreknowledge of His creation. After all, if I know what you are about to do and punish you for it anyway, whats MY overall eternal motive?
  • Moreover, if I so loved the world that I sent my Son to provide an answer to pain and suffering, why did I allow it in the first place?
    Perhaps pain and suffering (evil) had to exist initially in order to allow free will.
    Or as I always like to speculate, God only created a possibility of hell...and only created it for the angels. Lucifer, having chosen self exaltation over servant obedience, actualized the possibility. Thus the stage was set for free will and humanity.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 379 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2016 5:41 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 395 by Tangle, posted 10-12-2016 10:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 401 of 591 (792894)
    10-14-2016 7:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 400 by ringo
    10-13-2016 12:59 PM


    Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
    Science is a continuous process. There is no "after".
    Consensus is part of the process.
    Whereas Faith is taking a stand.
    If I believe something, I may always question my understanding of it, but i won't doubt it. I dont tentatively hold back and not make a choice pending further information, because I have made a choice that what I seek is well with my soul.
    Perhaps some of you remain atheists pending further information. Or perhaps you have taken a stand in that you cannot know God...thus you have faith in your logic and decision...just as I have faith in my decision.
    The problem with a lot of you is that you have believed lies about what the Bible is, what it says, and even who wrote it.
    I respect honesty, however. If you have concluded that there is no God and are honest about it, I will respect your decision.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 400 by ringo, posted 10-13-2016 12:59 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 402 by jar, posted 10-14-2016 10:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 403 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2016 3:07 AM Phat has replied
     Message 405 by ringo, posted 10-15-2016 11:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 404 of 591 (792910)
    10-15-2016 9:09 AM
    Reply to: Message 403 by Tangle
    10-15-2016 3:07 AM


    Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity
    Now that's a weird thing to say - why do you say it? What are these lies?
    First, Paul is said to be an uninspired man with an agenda to change the religion.
    This is simply untrue. Paul is an inspired man with a calling. (OK we can use the word agenda, but there is no discernible hostile or selfish motive)
    Second, too many people believe that the Bible is filled with human invented stories.
    I believe that this is a lie. Though I cannot prove it, I will assert that the motive of most Bible Debunkers is not to preach truth, but, rather, to discredit the story of Jesus Christ.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 403 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2016 3:07 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 406 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2016 11:52 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 407 of 591 (792985)
    10-18-2016 9:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 285 by jar
    09-29-2016 11:33 AM


    Re: Limited Exposure To Beliefs
    Phat writes:
    Do you consider the idea that the messenger is the message appropriate?
    jar writes:
    I consider that a meaningless assertion; just plain silly.
    Evidently you believe that it is what we do and not about what He did.
    Would I be correct in assuming that you believe that being a "good" or productive Christian does not even require a Living Christ?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 285 by jar, posted 09-29-2016 11:33 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 409 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 9:49 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 408 of 591 (792986)
    10-18-2016 9:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 406 by Tangle
    10-15-2016 11:52 AM


    Tales Told Round A Campfire
    Tangle writes:
    The bible is stuffed full of myths and porkie pies. Talking snakes, parting waters, flooding the world raising dead - you name it, it's a bunch of children's stories.
    So am I correct in assuming that if I told you that Jesus Christ was alive today, you would "give a toss either way"?
    Or would you demand scientific evidence?
    (Keep in mind we are in a Faith & Belief Forum)
    I'm still waiting whether jar---a purported Christian--thinks it matters.
    There is a difference between telling children to do their best because it is the right thing to do and telling them that God is alive and actually cares about what they do.
    Would you tell your children to avoid myths and tales and focus on the dignity and almighty hope that science and critical thinking provide for our lives and our future destiny?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 406 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2016 11:52 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 410 by Tangle, posted 10-18-2016 12:02 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 411 of 591 (793050)
    10-19-2016 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 410 by Tangle
    10-18-2016 12:02 PM


    Re: Tales Told Round A Campfire
    Tangle writes:
    If Jesus was alive, I'd know about it wouldn't I?
    Good question.
    Would you expect to know about it or would you already have your mind made up about the absurdity of it all?
    If you have already concluded that something is impossible, you may never know about it.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 410 by Tangle, posted 10-18-2016 12:02 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 412 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2016 12:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 413 of 591 (794736)
    11-23-2016 11:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 409 by jar
    10-18-2016 9:49 AM


    Marketing Pressure or Progressive Revelation?
    Phat,responding to jar writes:
    Do you consider the idea that the messenger is the message appropriate?
    jar writes:
    I consider that a meaningless assertion; just plain silly.
    Lets take this line of thought over to The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 409 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 9:49 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 414 of 591 (811625)
    06-09-2017 10:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 45 by jar
    03-29-2016 9:27 AM


    Re: God Unplugged
    whats wrong with the belief that humans are special to God?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 45 by jar, posted 03-29-2016 9:27 AM jar has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 415 by Porosity, posted 06-09-2017 11:05 PM Phat has replied

      
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