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Author Topic:   Anselm's Doctrine of Substitution
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 7 of 80 (717101)
01-24-2014 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
01-23-2014 8:38 PM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:
What is a lie? A deception. Why would God need to deceive anybody?
Deception can be a good thing. You don't need to tell your auntie that her favourite dress is the ugliest thing you've seen in your life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 01-23-2014 8:38 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 01-24-2014 12:55 PM ringo has replied
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 10-17-2016 1:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 12 of 80 (717230)
01-25-2014 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
01-24-2014 12:55 PM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:
keeping quiet is not lying, however. It is simply knowing when to shut up.
And taking a dollar off Donald Trump's pile isn't stealing if he doesn't notice it's gone?
I would agree that it isn't necessarily "wrong" - but don't get hung up on definitions. You seem to be stuck in the rut that lying is "bad" so God would never lie. I would say instead that even if He flat-out lied for a good reason, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 01-24-2014 12:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 20 of 80 (717508)
01-28-2014 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
01-27-2014 12:11 PM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:
Then there is the father of lies.
Who created the father of lies? (Who is the grandfather of lies?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 01-27-2014 12:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 01-28-2014 1:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 32 of 80 (717685)
01-30-2014 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
01-28-2014 1:32 PM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:
All that was allowed was the possibility of evil...a possibility that was then actualized by Lucifer.
So when I fire my shotgun out the window, I'm just allowing the possibility of evil? It takes somebody walking into the shotgun blast to actualize the evil?
Phat writes:
Of course you have a point if you say that the snake was simply using a political ad to sway the newly created humans to follow his platform.
I wouldn't say that. I don't see where the snake had any "platform". He was telling the truth. He just didn't mention the consequences, so it was a half-truth. On the other hand, God told an untruth.
Phat writes:
Humans keep trying to bring God to their level of reasoning and guessing how God feels and what God would do.
That's why apologetics are ultimately circular. It always comes down to, "If it doesn't make any sense, it's because God doesn't think the same way we do. Some things can not be explained."
Then why do you try to explain them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 01-28-2014 1:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 01-30-2014 11:35 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 34 of 80 (717691)
01-30-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
01-30-2014 11:35 AM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:
God---by definition---would never need to lie.
That's your absurd definition.
God did lie, whether He had to or not.
Phat writes:
How do we know that God lied?
He said they would die "the same day". They didn't. It's possible that He changed His mind and didn't carry through on His threat but that's the only way you can get around it being a lie.
Phat writes:
How do we know that humanity was not supposed to live forever...just as Jesus does?
There you go running in circles again. If it doesn't make sense, "we don't know".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 01-30-2014 11:35 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 01-30-2014 6:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 37 of 80 (717753)
01-31-2014 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
01-30-2014 6:12 PM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:
My counterpoint is that autonomy, by definition is evil.
What's the difference between autonomy and free will?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 01-30-2014 6:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 01-31-2014 3:40 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 80 (717788)
02-01-2014 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
01-31-2014 3:40 PM


Re: There is no exclusionary option
Phat writes:
My argument would be that even if your choices are not controlled by God, they will be judged by God.
Full circle again. If we are judged by God for making the 'wrong' choice, how do we have free will? A choice between ice cream and a punch in the face is not a real choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 01-31-2014 3:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 02-01-2014 3:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 80 (717871)
02-02-2014 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
02-01-2014 3:27 PM


Re: There is no exclusionary option
Phat writes:
Why must I listen to you?
Can't I be an independent spirit apart from your flow?
Why must I be you? Can't I be like you?
So why don't you play Lucifer's advocate and answer those questions? Pretend, just for a moment, that the apologetics you've been spoon-fed are not the be-all and end-all of knowledge. Pretend, just for a moment, that God isn't the idiot portrayed by the apologists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 02-01-2014 3:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 02-02-2014 4:14 PM ringo has replied
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 10-17-2016 7:52 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 44 of 80 (717951)
02-03-2014 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
02-02-2014 4:14 PM


Re: Lucifers Defense Attorney
Phat writes:
I have the copyright on love for GOD as well as the name and concept of original Creator.
See what I mean about making God look like an idiot? Why would He be so petty?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 02-02-2014 4:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 02-03-2014 12:21 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 48 of 80 (718086)
02-04-2014 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
02-03-2014 12:21 PM


Re: Lucifers Defense Attorney
Phat writes:
Are you suggesting that God leaves the idea of worship and obligation entirely at our choice and will?
Why wouldn't He? What good does worship do for Him?
Phat writes:
That even if we chose to become atheists and chose to look to no other higher source than ourselves that He would honor it?
As Groucho Marx said, "I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." I wouldn't have any respect for a God who had no expectations of me beyond obedience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 02-03-2014 12:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 11:40 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 50 of 80 (718099)
02-04-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
02-04-2014 11:40 AM


Re: Gods Expectations
Phat writes:
IF I am gonna work hard, hard enough to give away more than I need...I have a few expectations also.
Such as?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 11:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 12:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 52 of 80 (718106)
02-04-2014 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
02-04-2014 12:11 PM


Re: Gods Expectations
Phat writes:
I cant count on myself to work hard enough to take care of myself.
That's why we evolved societies. Unfortunately you live in one of the most antisocial societies on earth. You can't even count on free healthcare.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 12:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 54 of 80 (792960)
10-17-2016 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
10-17-2016 7:52 AM


Re: There is no exclusionary option
Phat writes:
How can I answer the questions honestly when it will mean I am going against God?
How is honesty going against God?
Phat writes:
If I am truly going to be assigned satan as my client, I may well warn him about reality.
Or you might get a reality check of your own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 10-17-2016 7:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 56 of 80 (792962)
10-17-2016 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
10-17-2016 1:08 PM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:
If humans metaphorically ingested good and evil both, what would be true?
We would die...in that evil itself will die. We have evil in us, thus death.
Good would also die.
Phat writes:
We would be like God. satan was not telling a truth, however.
But of couse he was telling the truth. God Himself said so.
Phat writes:
Satan was defending his own right to exist.
Why would Satan or anybody else have to defend their right to exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 10-17-2016 1:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 4:18 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 70 of 80 (793001)
10-18-2016 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
10-18-2016 4:18 AM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:
You cant defend your right to be an equal.
Who said anything about being equal? We're talking about the right to exist, not be equal.
So, why would Satan or anybody else have to defend their right to exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 4:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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