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Author Topic:   Anselm's Doctrine of Substitution
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 80 (717970)
02-03-2014 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
02-03-2014 8:53 AM


Re: Lucifers Defense Attorney
jar writes:
And once again Phat, where is your support for Lucifer's desire for autonomy, or that Lucifer wanted to be worshiped or that Lucifer wanted to not listen to a higher authority?
But these are the stories! In googling Lucifer and perusing what Christians...as well as other beliefs state about him, he is either portrayed as hateful and jealous or as simply another spirit desiring autonomy.
Anselm comments:
quote:
IF you carefully consider the scheme of human salvation, you will perceive the reconciliation of the devil, of which you made inquiry, to be impossible. For, as man could not be reconciled but by the death of the God-man, by whose holiness the loss occasioned by man's sin should be made up; so fallen angels cannot be saved but by the death of a God-angel who by his holiness may repair the evil occasioned by the sins of his companions. And as man must not be restored by a man of a different race, though of the same nature, so no angel ought to be saved by any other angel, though all were of the same nature, for they are not like men, all of the same race. For all angels were not sprung from one, as all men were. And there is another objection to their restoration, viz , that, as they fell with none to plot their fall, so they must rise with none to aid them; but this is impossible. But otherwise they cannot be restored to their original dignity. For, had they not sinned, they would have been confirmed in virtue without any foreign aid, simply by the power given to them from the first. And, therefore, if any one thinks that the redemption of our Lord ought to be extended even to the fallen angels, he is convinced by reason, for by reason he has been deceived. And I do not say this as if to deny that the virtue of his death far exceeds all the sins of men and angels, but because infallible reason rejects the reconciliation of the fallen angels.
My question is...where did Anselm get his ideas about who Lucifer was?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 02-03-2014 8:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 02-03-2014 1:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 80 (718097)
02-04-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by ringo
02-04-2014 10:44 AM


Gods Expectations
As Groucho Marx said, "I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." I wouldn't have any respect for a God who had no expectations of me beyond obedience.
OK, so what else does He expect? IF I am gonna work hard, hard enough to give away more than I need...I have a few expectations also.
This relationship is a two way street.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 10:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 11:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 80 (718103)
02-04-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
02-04-2014 11:44 AM


Re: Gods Expectations
Now you have me thinking.
Im getting older, and my diabetes is slowly taking its toil.
I cant count on myself to work hard enough to take care of myself.
There are few people out there that would hand me spare change...and it takes a lot of spare change to provide a retirement.
I wonder if Anselm worried about his earthly security---nevermind his eternal security.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 12:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 80 (792957)
10-17-2016 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
02-02-2014 1:12 PM


Re: There is no exclusionary option
So why don't you play Lucifer's advocate and answer those questions?
How can I answer the questions honestly when it will mean I am going against God?
Sometimes taking our own path leads to us getting lost. Or hurt.
If I am truly going to be assigned satan as my client, I may well warn him about reality.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 02-02-2014 1:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 10-17-2016 11:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 80 (792961)
10-17-2016 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
01-24-2014 10:50 AM


Re: God need never lie.
I thought about this.
If humans metaphorically ingested good and evil both, what would be true?
  • We would die...in that evil itself will die. We have evil in us, thus death.
  • We would be like God. satan was not telling a truth, however. Satan was defending his own right to exist. death was not something to be discussed.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by ringo, posted 01-24-2014 10:50 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 56 by ringo, posted 10-17-2016 1:17 PM Phat has replied
     Message 57 by Tangle, posted 10-17-2016 1:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 60 by Rrhain, posted 10-18-2016 4:57 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 58 of 80 (792973)
    10-18-2016 4:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
    10-17-2016 1:17 PM


    Re: God need never lie.
    Why would Satan or anybody else have to defend their right to exist?
    Because there is only One God....
    You cant defend your right to be an equal.
    Among humans we all are equal.
    Among Gods there is only One.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by ringo, posted 10-17-2016 1:17 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 59 by Rrhain, posted 10-18-2016 4:50 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 70 by ringo, posted 10-18-2016 11:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 62 of 80 (792979)
    10-18-2016 8:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 61 by Pressie
    10-18-2016 7:11 AM


    Re: Anselm not required
    That's what Faith and Belief are all about. This is not a Science Forum and there are no measurable results and published papers.
    Perhaps this is more your cup of tea: Closer To Truth
    Is there some philosophical, theological or basic practical moral truths that religion has answers to or is the entire concept irrelevant in our modern times?
    More to the point: Is Jesus Christ relevant in modern times, or is the message more important than the messenger? I maintain that you cannot separate the message from the messenger.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 61 by Pressie, posted 10-18-2016 7:11 AM Pressie has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 63 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 8:52 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 64 by Pressie, posted 10-18-2016 9:06 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 75 by Rrhain, posted 10-19-2016 4:49 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 77 by Pressie, posted 10-19-2016 7:55 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 66 of 80 (792990)
    10-18-2016 9:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 65 by jar
    10-18-2016 9:18 AM


    Re: Anselm not required
    Just as we all face the threats posed by bad science, we all also face the threats posed by bad religion.
    Should we teach our children that God is irrelevant and that they will be judged solely on what they do?
    Shall we shoot the messenger and yet accept the message?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 65 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 9:18 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 67 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 9:52 AM Phat has replied
     Message 71 by ringo, posted 10-18-2016 11:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 74 by Theodoric, posted 10-18-2016 3:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 76 by Pressie, posted 10-19-2016 7:28 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 68 of 80 (792997)
    10-18-2016 10:11 AM
    Reply to: Message 67 by jar
    10-18-2016 9:52 AM


    The Living Word Through Doing
    jar writes:
    Where do you get the idea I have ever suggested shooting a messenger?
    But being a "good" or productive Christian first requires being a member of one of the Chapters of Club Christian and then depends on your behavior. I cannot see how any Christ would be a requirement. Perhaps you could explain those issues?
    So we can have clubs based on the behavior of a dead prophet and that the prophet Himself is irrelevant to club activities. Got it. Seems you could care less whether the messenger is dead or alive. Perhaps you view the message as alive. Which means that as you do for others, you are making the words living and active. There is hope for you yet.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 67 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 9:52 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 69 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 10:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 78 of 80 (793047)
    10-19-2016 11:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 77 by Pressie
    10-19-2016 7:55 AM


    Re: Anselm not required
    Not at all. I was trying to focus on theCloser To Truth Link.
    I am emphasizing, however, that Scientific Methodology is no substitute for philosophical musing. Just because you cannot or will not allow yourself to speculate...building on what he said or she said....does not mean that we must dismiss philosophy based on its failure to adhere to scientific methodology.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 77 by Pressie, posted 10-19-2016 7:55 AM Pressie has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 79 by ringo, posted 10-19-2016 11:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 80 by Pressie, posted 10-28-2016 8:38 AM Phat has not replied

      
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