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Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 76 of 892 (792943)
10-16-2016 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Theodoric
10-15-2016 9:23 AM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Those are opinion pieces. I have had great respect for Glen Greenwald in the past, but he can quickly cross over the line from objective reporting. Again, none of these pieces provide evidence of the collusion you claim.
So those opinions are based on made up reality ... right. Again, I won't waste my time trying to convince you of something obvious. Take a breath, relax.
I was a very strong Bernie supporter, financially, emotionally and physically. I walked the walk. ...
Ditto.
... Alas, Bernie lost. It is time to move on.
Do you mean capitulate or do you mean continue the revolution through promoting progressive 'Berniecrat' candidates up and down the ticket -- because that is what I have been doing. It is also why I WILL vote for Jill. Making that decision was very liberating.
There are issues about the DNC, huge issues. ... Burning the place down is not the answer
Who is burning it down? Electing progressive 'Berniecrat' candidates is not burning it down, fighting to regain the senate is not burning it down.
... Now is not the time to address them. The release of the email has pointed out that reform of the party is needed. ...
When is? Are you a member of your local Democrat party committee? I am, as well as a slew of new progressives here in RI, so that we can implement change at the local level, from party issues to how the primary is run to what role superdelegates should have.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Theodoric, posted 10-15-2016 9:23 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Theodoric, posted 10-16-2016 10:09 AM RAZD has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 77 of 892 (792944)
10-16-2016 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
10-16-2016 8:59 AM


Re: really?
You need to do something about that persecution complex

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2016 8:59 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 78 of 892 (792945)
10-16-2016 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by RAZD
10-16-2016 9:24 AM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Stein is antiscience and panders to conspiracy theorists. Which seemingly would be appealing to you.
Jill Stein’s Anti-Science Pandering – Skepchick
quote:
Possibly her worst quality, though, is her pandering on vaccines. Stein is an actual medical doctor, so she should be well aware of the mountain of evidence we have that shows absolutely no link between vaccines and autism, no link between vaccines and any serious injury, and no problem with the current vaccine schedule. But when asked direct questions about her opinion on vaccines, she always waffles. Take her Reddit AMA, in which she answers a question about whether vaccines are dangerous by blathering on for several paragraphs about how people are right to be skeptical of Big Pharma influencing the FDA.
She talked around the issue again when interviewed for Newsweek, causing the interviewer to have to ask her twice to actually get a clear answer. When nailed down and asked for a direct answer to the question of if she believes vaccines cause autism, her best answer is I do not know of any evidence to that effect.
I actually do think Stein knows vaccines don’t cause autism, but she is so focused on not losing the support of people who do think that way that she refuses to be direct. This has never been shown more clearly than last month when musicianColin Meloy asked her on Twitter, Hey @DrJillStein, do you believe vaccines cause autism? Stein responded with There’s no evidence that vaccines cause autism. Let’s do more to support autistic people & their families, which is a great fucking answer! But that answer was quickly deleted, and replaced with a second Tweet reading, I’m not aware of evidence linking autism with vaccines. Let’s do more to support autistic people & their families.
All politicians may pander to some extent, but I can’t support someone who claims to be a radical revolutionary who doesn’t even have the courage to stand up for her own beliefs on an issue as important as this one. Even though she’ll never win an election, any politician pandering to anti-vaccination activists only makes them stronger.
There is no excuse for this pandering to the anti-science crowd. Or being on the same page as Trump when it comes to Russia.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2016 9:24 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2016 4:46 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 256 by dronestar, posted 11-04-2016 3:40 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 257 by dronestar, posted 11-04-2016 3:49 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 79 of 892 (792950)
10-16-2016 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Theodoric
10-16-2016 10:09 AM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Stein is antiscience and panders to conspiracy theorists. ...
Wrong. DO some research, please. This is DNC propaganda. You have to be blind or willingly ignorant not to see the several times she has responded to these assertions. Or you just take the articles that appeal to your opinion. I have watched many Hillary fans do this kind of thing this year. Cognitive dissonance is alive and well this election year (do I need to mention Trump supporters?
My reasons for voting for Stein are purely strategic. I know she will not win, I know that Hillary will win RI, and I cannot vote for her (warmonger, paranoid, two-faced, doesn't have a position that cannot be bought, ... imho of course). But I can support third party growth and a progressive coalition that crosses party lines (see Working Families Party, of which I am also a member, see especially their issues).
... Which seemingly would be appealing to you.
LOL. What was that you were complaining I was doing? you are funny.
You really like to make mountains out of molehills.
btw, my psychologist mom always said "just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean you are not being followed."
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Theodoric, posted 10-16-2016 10:09 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Theodoric, posted 10-16-2016 5:33 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 86 by 1.61803, posted 10-17-2016 4:50 PM RAZD has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(4)
Message 80 of 892 (792953)
10-16-2016 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by RAZD
10-16-2016 4:46 PM


JIll Stein panderer, Working Families endorses Clinton
Wrong.
No. Correct. I actually have read her responses to questions and her statements. The article I linked to has actual quotes.
You have to be blind or willingly ignorant not to see the several times she has responded to these assertions.
And each time she dissimulates and continues to pander and express anti-science views. She has been caught and shown to express anti-science and anti-vax views. She denies it, but expresses the viewpoints again.
This is DNC propaganda.
So we should not take Jill Stein at her word?
Cognitive dissonance is alive and well this election year
Looking in the mirror?
(see Working Families Party, of which I am also a member, see especially their issues).
I am very familiar with them and have had some conversations with them here in WI. Funny that the candidate you so vehemently oppose is endorsed by your party. What I like about them is that they see the long game and are not going to cut off their nose to spite their face. If they can continue to build an organization, I can see that I will be working and contributing more to them in the future.
Page not found - Working Families Party
quote:
With the support of 68% of our membership and the backing of our national board, we’re announcing the Working Families Party’s endorsement of Hillary Clinton for President.
WFP was an early, enthusiastic supporter of Senator Bernie Sanders’ campaign. He demonstrated the deep hunger of millions of Americans for a political revolution  a radical restoration of democracy and participation, an end to the oligarchic power of a wealthy elite, and a new era of economic, racial and climate justice.
But elections are about choices. And when we wake up on November 9th, either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump will have been elected President. We choose Secretary Clinton, as Bernie did. We make this announcement knowing we’ll need to work to hold her accountable to her campaign’s promises. But we need to elect her first. Here’s why:
First, because we need to not merely defeat Trump we need to repudiate him and everything he represents. Donald Trump is the most dangerous figure in mainstream American politics since George Wallace. A Trump victory would not only put an unqualified, know-nothing, narcissistic, authoritarian jerk in the White House, it would empower the most malignant tendencies in American society. He offers up a phony, racist populism. He mocks the disabled. He stokes fear and incites hatred of immigrants, Muslims, and women. His rhetoric has generated violence.
We believe that a multi-racial, progressive and genuinely game-changing populism can win back some of his voters over time, especially independents, and that’s a task for the next decade. The task of the next 84 days is to sweep Trump and Trumpism off the stage once and for all.
Second, because Secretary Clinton has announced good policies on many issues that are deeply important to the lives and fortunes of the middle-class, working-class and poor:
Public Financing of Elections and Voting Rights. Clinton calls not just for tossing Citizens United but also for the creation of publicly financed elections. Not just restoration of the Voting Rights Act, but also automatic voter registration. There’s no chance of saving our democracy without these reforms.
Tuition-Free Higher Education. Clinton has adopted the bulk of Sanders’ free college proposal, and that’s something to be enthusiastic about. This will surely be a huge fight for the next two years.
Comprehensive Immigration Reform. Sec. Clinton supports a path to citizenship and the DREAM Act, and have called for expanding Obama’s executive action so families can stay together. Trump wants to build a wall and start mass deportations.
Jobs and Infrastructure. Clinton has called for enormous (and overdue) investment in public spending on clean energy and infrastructure. Trump favors tax cuts for the rich and the fraud known as trickle down.
Mass Incarceration. Clinton calls for ending private prisons, alternatives to incarceration (like drug treatment), and reducing mandatory minimums.
Climate Change. Sec. Clinton has announced policies that would make major investments in renewable energy while creating good jobs and protecting communities on the front lines of the global climate crisis. Trump says climate change is a hoax.
But it’s not just the policy proposals. It’s the enormous power of appointments, and not merely the Supreme Court.
The National Labor Relations Board and Department of Labor can make it harder or easier for workers to form unions, and for gig economy workers to obtain rights in the workplace. The EPA makes critical choices about how clean our water should be, and whether we will fight climate change for real. People facing foreclosure need advocates at HUD. 401(k) account holders need serious regulators atTreasury and the SEC.
This is not to say that Hillary Clinton is perfect. She’s not. No candidate is. The truth is, if she becomes President Clinton, she will only be as good as we social movements, unions, progressive activists and organizationsmake her. History is clear on this. LBJ’s achievements on civil rights and the safety net expansion were unimaginable without the civil rights movement; FDR’s New Deal would have been impossible without the mobilization of millions of unemployed and industrial workers. It’s up to us to set the stage for the future we want to see.
Even if a President Clinton were able to pass all of her policy proposals, it wouldn’t be enough to create the world we want to live in. We have to go much deeper than what the Democratic Party or modern capitalism currently allow. We have to change the rules of the game on the economy, on our democracy and on the planet. In the end we need to change the very questions we ask about what we owe each other and what our history really is. Fundamentally, we need to change the balance of power in the society so that the burdens and blessings of the land are truly shared.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2016 4:46 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 81 of 892 (792955)
10-17-2016 6:54 AM


if i where american given the choices id vote for this guy

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by vimesey, posted 10-17-2016 7:16 AM frako has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 82 of 892 (792956)
10-17-2016 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by frako
10-17-2016 6:54 AM


Hi Frako - this may only be the Wiki page on this guy's activities, but there's enough there to think he might not be the best comedy candidate to choose.
Greater Wynnewood Exotic Animal Park - Wikipedia

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by frako, posted 10-17-2016 6:54 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by frako, posted 10-17-2016 10:50 AM vimesey has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 83 of 892 (792959)
10-17-2016 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by vimesey
10-17-2016 7:16 AM


I think he is still a better choice then either hillary or trump. And he actually looks like he is honest.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by vimesey, posted 10-17-2016 7:16 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(5)
Message 84 of 892 (792966)
10-17-2016 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Diomedes
10-13-2016 9:35 AM


The Supreme Court - More Obstruction
Well, the Republican controlled senate said that they would not acknowledge a nominee from President Obama because they decided to make up a new rule on the fly that a 'lame duck president' shouldn't be able to appoint a new judge to the supreme court.
Unfortunately, John McCain has taken that one step further indicating that they will likely block ANY nominee put forth by Hillary Clinton, if she were president:
Republicans May Block Any Of Clinton's Supreme Court Nominees, McCain Says | HuffPost Latest News
So for those keeping score, the new rules as dictated by Republicans regarding the Supreme court are as follows:
1) All nominees put forth by lame duck presidents shall not be considered. Unless the president is a Republican.
2) All nominees put forth by sitting Democratic presidents shall always be ignored.
3) All nominees put forth by sitting Republican presidents must be voted in without question. Because to do otherwise is unpatriotic.
Well, glad I have that figured out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Diomedes, posted 10-13-2016 9:35 AM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(4)
Message 85 of 892 (792967)
10-17-2016 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Diomedes
10-17-2016 4:26 PM


Re: The Supreme Court - More Obstruction
Diomedes writes:
So for those keeping score, the new rules as dictated by Republicans regarding the Supreme court are as follows:
You forgot #4: Claim Democrats are unwilling to reach across the aisle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Diomedes, posted 10-17-2016 4:26 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 86 of 892 (792968)
10-17-2016 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by RAZD
10-16-2016 4:46 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
RAZD writes:
I cannot vote for her (warmonger, paranoid, two-faced, doesn't have a position that cannot be bought, ... imho of course).
Ok, Ok, but tell us how you really feel.
I live in a RED state. So I feel very disenfranchised every election.
But I do still vote. I am hoping if Hillary does win she turns out to be a great president, maybe she will surprise us. Maybe it will be her calling. I will say I do not envy her if she does as Congress is already sharpening their knives.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2016 4:46 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by RAZD, posted 10-20-2016 10:24 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


(1)
Message 87 of 892 (792970)
10-17-2016 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
10-16-2016 8:59 AM


Re: really?
I would like to see that proved. Yes, there were voter purges, but can you show that it was 'bernie' supporters that were purged,?? How do they know who to purge/?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2016 8:59 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(6)
Message 88 of 892 (792971)
10-17-2016 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
10-16-2016 8:59 AM


Re: really?
Evidence of machine tampering to record false results, always to Clinton benefit (a trick learned from the GOP).
Bullshit. You have no evidence. I follow reports of voting irregularities. There is no evidence that shows any tampering. If you have it the FBI would be quite interested in seeing it.
Long lines in Bernie districts because of sudden cut-back on polling stations ... but not in Clinton districts.
How did anyone know which polling stations to cut back on? I suppose you have evidence for this accusation. Would love to see it.
Then add in the systemic rigging of closed primaries where independents could not vote, as in New York where you had to register democrat before the first debate to be able to vote in the primary. Half of Bernie's supporters were independents.
It was the Democratic Party primary. You have a problem with actual members of the party choosing their parties nominee. That is a very weird and disingenuous argument. This rule was not put in place for this contest. It has been the parties rule.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2016 8:59 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(4)
Message 89 of 892 (793014)
10-18-2016 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
10-16-2016 8:59 AM


Re: really?
RAZD writes:
Then add in the systemic rigging of closed primaries where independents could not vote, as in New York where you had to register democrat before the first debate to be able to vote in the primary. Half of Bernie's supporters were independents.
And add in the systemic rigging through the media (all owned by corporations that supported Hillary massively) so that even MSNBC rarely mentioned Bernie and the media blackout on his rallies,
Finally there is the systemic rigging of the superdelegates such that Bernie would have needed something over 60% of the popular vote to win.
The word "rigging" is going to need a long vacation after this election due to all the abuse it has to put up with.
Those were the rules BEFORE even one vote was cast. Those are the same rules that were around when Obama was nominated, for crying out loud. It isn't rigged. Those are the rules. When you follow the rules, IT ISN'T RIGGED.
For crying out loud . . .
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2016 8:59 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 90 of 892 (793032)
10-19-2016 7:43 AM


Rigged
Damn Democrats also rigged it in a great many states so that not only the Independents couldn't vote in their primaries, but also the Republicans. Don't forget that little bit of last minute surprise, behind the scenes, not covered by the media shenanigans.
JB

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Pressie, posted 10-19-2016 8:31 AM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
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