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Author | Topic: The God That Paul Marketed Over Time. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
For the sake of this discussion, lets assume that Paul wrote much of the New Testament. This website suggests that Paul wrote Romans, 1st & 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1st & 2nd Thessalonians 1st & 2nd Timothy, Titus, Philemon and there is a debate regarding Hebrews, so we can leave that out.
In another topic, jar and I had the following exchange:
Phat writes:
Would you go so far as to say that the God that Paul marketed be opposed, reviled, condemned?jar writes: Which God that Paul marketed? His sales pitch changed over time. But yes, some of the things Paul tried to market should be opposed, reviled, condemned! So in this topic, lets examine the "God" that Paul marketed in the 13 books attributed to him. Faith & Belief, please. Edited by Admin, : Minor format fix. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lots of my response and initial argument is addressed to jar, but I want anyone and everyone to feel free to step into the discussion.
jar writes: I don't see that there was any time that Paul did not believe that Christs return was imminent. I would argue that Pauls zeal and passion were based on a life transforming event.
Paul's product was quite different ... broader in scope and acceptance of non-observance of so called laws and tradition, more open to adopting pagan practices, cultures and rites and more concerned with social practices than John. His was a pragmatic product that evolved from a simple End of Times position to one of long term organization and evolution.Pauline Christianity is based on Paul amplifying and explaining what Jesus really meant. What you see in Paul's Epistles is Jesus through the filter of Paul. Would not the Gospels be Jesus through the "filter" of their authors also? You emphasize Jesus life. Paul and others emphasized the death, burial, and resurrection. Why do people fail to see that many were transformed by the renewing of their minds?? Do you think that they were simply convinced (and sold) a new product. What keeps you from believing in the power of the death, burial, and resurrection? The fact that you yourself have not drank the koolaid? (By the way...I am convinced that conversion is genuine--though not always all at once. I honestly believe that the Holy Spirit enters a man upon simple confession. I will admit, however, that this doctrine was first described by Paul.
jar writes: What specifically were his obsessions? Gradually Paul's product came to dominate the early church partially because he seemed to live longer, was more open to compromise with outside authority and the fact that his conversion did nothing to diminish his obsessions. One other thing: I dont believe that Paul was marketing an unknown God...but lets start by going to the scriptures...shall we start in Romans?
Authorship Of The Pauline Epistles Edited by Phat, : fixed Edited by Phat, : added linkChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Did he define imminent as two thousand years and counting? How do we know that Pauls words were not mean't for a much later audience? The authors themselves had no way of knowing when Jesus would return but they were confidant it would happen.
A lot of people have life-transforming events. Transformation is always for the better. Change can be better or worse. Transformation is not something you do, though it is something you continually choose through doing.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes:
Look at Romans. Paul starts it off by saying You seem to be obsessed with the idea of somebody else doing it for you - or to you.Rom 1:4-6 writes: Right away Paul talks of something we receive from Jesus. The emphasis is never on what we do in and of ourselves but rather what we either do for Christ or what He does through us.
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. Rom 2:28-29 writes: Notice how the mans transformation is by the Spirit and his praise is from God. A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. This scripture supports the idea that we are transformed...we do not transform ourselves. As for the idea that Christianity is all about what we do, Paul makes it clear that of ourselves we can do nothing.Rom 3:10-12 writes:
10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." Paul does speak of what we must do, but he says we cannot do it by ourselves. We need God in us. It is God that does what needs to be done through us. We have the responsibility to do, yes...but it is as co-laborers with Christ. Again, we cannot do it ourselves.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: You still dont get it. The messenger not only existed...He exists now.
Does it just mean believing that the messenger existed or does it mean believing in the message? Rom 9:31-33 writes: The metaphor of Jesus as the rock...the stone...and then Paul later calls us living stones. You seem to think that the source is unimportant...just as jar does. This is a mistake in that you think that it is we who determine our own inner peace.
Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written:"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Israel blew it. Period. Rom 10:3 writes: By preaching that the source(GOD) is unimportant and that it is all about what we do you have eliminated the teaching concerning knowing God through Christ. You claim that GOD is unknowable and that even if He were around you may well have issues with Him. Like Israel, you are establishing your own righteousness. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. To your credit, many Christians don't do enough while many others--non religious included--do far more human good in the world. I'll leave it up to God to judge the masses. Paul seems to believe and preach that knowing Jesus is crucial. Rom 10:9-12 writes: Now we know that faith without works is dead. Works are a part of the equation, to be sure. That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." But concerning the idea that the source is unimportant, consider Pauls quote:
Rom 11:18-19 writes:
Our "root" is not "star stuff" as Sagan once suggested. Our root is our very Creator and the purpose He put within us. Love God. Love others. Its just that simple. You do not support the root, but the root supports you. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
But the authors (the early ones) did know when Jesus would return since Jesus told them he would return while the audience he was addressing were still alive. This appears to be the God that you market...one who makes mistakes. Lets see if Paul agrees with you. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There are many explanations for this. Lets see if any of them hold water.
`1) Wycliffe writes: Matt 24:32-36This generation shall not pass away. To explain generation (genea) here as the lifetime of the disciples obligates one to seek the fulfillment of all these events by A.D. 70 AD. But that is manifestly impossible unless one spiritualizes the second coming of Christ. However, genea also can mean "race" or "family," and this yields good sense here. In spite of terrible persecution, the Jewish nation will not be exterminated, but will exist to share the blessings of the Millennial reign. In support of this view, Alford points out that Christians of ancient times continued to expect the Lord's coming even after the apostles and their contemporaries had passed away (New Testament for English Readers, p. 169). 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away. Cf. Rom 8:19-22; 1 Cor 7:31; Rev 21:1. The truth of these solemn predictions of Christ will not experience the slightest alteration. 36. The exact moment of fulfillment, however, lies in the authority of the Father alone (cf. Acts 1:7). No scheme of date-setting by men is possible. 2) The Dispensationalists believe that Jesus original mission was only for Israel and the Jewish people until after the Jewish people freely and adamantly rejected their messiah. At that point, salvation was open for everyone.(As you believe)Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You seem to think that the source is unimportant.
ringo writes: I have never said any such thing. (Yet if Jesus is God, the messenger is in fact the source) The Greatest Commandment supports both of our views. It supports my contention that the source(or messenger) is important.(Love the Lord thy God will all thy heart, soul, mind,and strength) And it supports yours: Love your neighbor as yourself.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It's pretty clear that those that were there when Jesus said:
Thats because the people had not yet rejected their messiah. You claim that a God who foreknows our damnation is evil. I maintain that Gods desire is that none will perish, but that we individually or collectively have the freedom to choose a path apart from His desire. quote:... that the understanding was that Generation meant the lifetime of those people in attendance. The original plan was that the Jews would accept their messiah and that the mission on earth would be complete and that the Gentiles would learn from the converted Jews. I know that you and Ringo both say that Christianity is all about what one does but I maintain that you cannot do Christianity without knowing Christ. And accepting Him for who He is. The Jews clearly rejected this invitation---as a people. When Jesus taught the Jews, they already knew the law. Paul later explained what happened to the Jewish salvation.(They ignored the source and thought that they themselves were their own source) You seem to be making the same error. But lets go on to the Epistles. I am curious why you reject Pauls teachings.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: OK. Thanks for making that clear. Now lets move onto the Epistles. What I primarily want to touch on in this discussion is how Paul saw God,how Paul saw Jesus Christ, and how a modern reader might see Jesus Christ through the teaching. Shall we start with Romans? I agree with much that Paul taught but also believe that most of Christianity, all of Fundamental and Evangelical Christianity, misrepresent what Paul taught by taking pieces parts out of context and failing to understand both the nature of Paul the man, the era in which he lived, the audience he addressed and what he actually taught. Paul actually emphasizes doing as opposed to professing throughout his interoffice memos and it is only by taking pieces out of context that anyone can say otherwise. What I reject is not Paul's teachings but rather the modern Apologists bumper sticker versions of what Paul taught.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: To start with, the God whom Paul marketed is not a figment of his imagination. He is writing about God as He knew Him...through Jesus Christ.
... but understand that quote mining will be met with references to the context and counter examples showing how the marketing changed both with audience and time. Rom 1:16-17 writes: In a modern context, which I will use in my defense of Paul and in support of the living God whom he wrote of, salvation is for everyone who believes...not for everyone convinced by evidence.
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."Rom 1:18-20 writes: Lots of people these days claim that God is anything but plainly evident. A word study on the word "suppress" in the original Greek shows that the word means that the truth is not only being silenced but is in fact being actively and forcefully withheld. In the day and age that we live in, Pauls words are more applicable than ever before.
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
Is there any compelling reason why Paul was talking only to Romans of that time rather than to us today? Does the evidence show that Paul was simply introducing a new religion rather than spreading the news about an actual God...made known to Paul through Jesus Christ and by extension made available to whosoever hears and believes the message?
Rom 1:21-22 writes:
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Much the same as is occurring today. Folks talk about God casually as if He is a human creation. Paul certainly did not see God as a product marketed by his own vain imagination. Edited by Phat, : fixed spelling Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The God whom Paul marketed is not a figment of his imagination. He is writing about God as He knew Him...through Jesus Christ.
jar writes: Why not? Consider what happened on the Damascus Road. We see Saul of Tarsus, a Jewish zealot who is against the message being spread by converted Jews. You are making an assertion that frankly you simply cannot support.Acts 8:3 writes: What he had against these converts I'll never know...but then came the Damascus Road. But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison. Acts 9:1-6 writes:
Whether or not these are second hand accounts is irrelevant to the story. The Biblical authors chose to put the words in red due to a consensual agreement that Saul heard a voice...a voice that claimed to be Jesus Christ. A man who was breathing murderous threats became a convert. As you yourself said, "Paul switched sides." Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." Granted there is no evidence apart from what is written. I might ask, however, if you routinely question belief without evidence. If so, you are wise. What is not wise, however, is to refuse to believe without evidence. This is known as suppressing the truth.
jar writes:
Lets talk about this God that Paul saw. Paul marketed the God he saw as a product and again that changed depending on the audience. The character of God he marketed (and he never marketed Jesus as God) also changed over time. The story suggests that Paul was converted after seeing nothing. Edited by Phat, : for some reason, my quotes get deleted when attempting to make a post Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Good questions. Would you say that Saul believed in God? If so, what changed on the road to Damascus?
What does it mean to "know God"? What does it mean to "have God in you"? What does it mean to "believe in God"?ringo writes: And yet Saul did far different things than Paul the convert did. What changed?
How can you know God without doing what He wants you to do? ringo writes: Evidently Saul of Tarsus did not have God "in" him.
How can you have God in you without doing what He wants you to do?ringo writes: Which is my point. The evidence only shows us that Saul changed. How can you believe in God without doing what He wants you to do? The author suggests that it was the voice of Jesus that caused Saul/Paul to change.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: I traced the words back to the KJV. What evidence do we have earlier than that that clearly shows the change? The story of Paul's conversion varies over time and what you are quoting is one of the later embellished accounts and definitely NOT a quote from Paul or even in any of his epistles. The claim that it is Jesus speaking is a later addition to the story and not found in the earlier versions. And please show me what was...as you claim...actually said?
jar writes: Again, what evidence do you have for this assertion? Where can you show me that Saul of Tarsus and Paul behaved essentially the same way? Scripture seems to show otherwise.
Paul changed sides but did not really change. And not believing without evidence is not called suppressing the truth except by the ignorant. Not all truth is evident. Consider the Jews. They rejected Jesus. Aside from their thinking that logic, reason, and tradition ...and their own conclusions were more persuasive than the plain truth living before their eyes! Rom 11:7-8 writes:
What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor,eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day. And that same stupor exists among the educated and otherwise intelligent people of this day and age as well. But lets focus on the Bible and its many books and translations. Perhaps we can establish whether the God written of in scripture is with us today...apart from our imaginations or not. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I cant argue with you on this point. do we love God BY loving our neighbour? And quoting Monty Python may get a laugh, but prayer is for our benefit...not His. We need to get it through our heads that we wont change the world or explore the universe until we solve our own problems. I maintain that knowing God helps us by taming our egos and our own sense of deity. Like Clint once said, "He is a legend in his own mind". We need to realize that we are not our own source of wisdom and love.\ Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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