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Author | Topic: Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jar writes:
I grew up with the assumption that Jesus was the Messiah. We went to a performance of Handel's Messiah every Christmas. (I still play the CD at Christmas.) So far I have never found any capable of making a convincing argument supporting Jesus fulfilling Old Testament passage that was not patently and intentionally contrived. But the more you look at it, the clearer it is that it's reverse engineering.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
No, they really weren't. As I may have mentioned earlier, a prophecy that nobody can understand is worthless. The prophesies were ambiguous. The messianic prophecies were fuel for wishful thinking. They gave the Jewish people hope in troubled times. The Second Coming of Jesus is a similar prophecy. It's much like various cults predicting the end of the world - when the predicted date passes, they just move the goalposts. If the Second Coming did happen, no doubt there would be people predicting a Third Coming, when Jesus really, really will make everything better.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
What sense does that make? "Oh, he really was a real prophet after all." What's the point of confirming that somebody was a real prophet if his prophecies didn't do any good?
If those prophecies are understandable only after the fact, then they do have confirmation power, allowing us to possibly distinguish a real prophet or Messiah from a fake one.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
What I said was that a prophecy is worthless if it can only be understood correctly in hindsight. At best, the hindsight interpretation is a little extra something that can be learned from the prophecy. It is not in and of itself a fulfillment of the prophecy.
There understanding was it seems largely in hind sight but that doesn't make them worthless. GDR writes:
Just because you hope to win the lottery tomorrow doesn't mean you will - and hope doesn't change the odds.
Just because I hope the sun is going to come up tomorrow isn't an indicator that it won't. GDR writes:
Not at all. The basis for renewing things is Jesus' message, not His person.
The credibility for the return of Jesus when God renews all things, is all based on the resurrection. GDR writes:
Unfortunately, that's all too true for some Christians because they've turned Christianity into a cult of personality where the medium is more important than the message. Jesus said that renewal of this world is our responsibility.
If the resurrection is simply a metaphor then Christianity falls apart and there is no good reason to hope for the renewal of this world.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
It isn't hard to grasp. It's hard to swallow.
The idea I'm suggesting is not that hard to grasp. NoNukes writes:
On the contrary, it isn't of much importance what credit the prophets receive today - or even at the time of Christ - because the time of the prophecy had already come and gone
It is not of much importance what credit those folk received at the time.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
That makes it worse, not better. One prophecy that actually fits is better than a dozen that have to be twisted to fit.
But it isn't that there was only one prophesy that covered this. GDR writes:
So full circle again: you need the resurrection to justify your twisting of prophecy.
... there is no reason to give more credibility to Jesus than there is to anyone else you might want to name without the resurrection. GDR writes:
Only to you. It's the same as the creationists sayng that without a literal 6-day creation the whole Bible is worthless. It's your poor interpretation that causes the problem.
For that matter, without the resurrection Jesus is a delusional failed messiah. GDR writes:
None of which requires Jesus to be the Messiah or to be resurected. The mesage has the same value with or without the delivery boy.
Jesus' message is critical and the message is that He is calling us to continue His Kingdom work of spreading God's love, peace, justice to the world as my signature says. We are called to live out our lives in that way and to, for lack of a better term, infect the world with God's love, ahead of the time when God completes the project.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Hawkins writes:
It's a miracle!
Why there are so many revived threads around in EvC.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
Matthew 25, for a start. He told us to feed the hungry, etc. That's about this world, isn't it?
ringo writes:
Where ? Jesus said that renewal of this world is our responsibility.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
You could say the same thing about Martin Luther King: If he hadn't been raised from the dead the Civil Rights movement would not have continued. There is no reason whatsoever to think that the movement would have continued if God hadn't resurrected Jesus. And you'd be wrong about that too.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
So was Jesus. He was a dime a dozen.
Martin Luther King was a leader in an pre-existing movement that had broad support among a large portion of the community. GDR writes:
So the only difference between one failed messiah and another is whether or not anybody though he was the messiah?
For that case nobody made any attempt to suggest such thing about KIng. They did about Jesus and we can believe them or choose to disbelieve them.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Davidjay writes:
You have an irony deficiency.
Think before you post, study before you post. Spamming is a violation.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
What is meant is that it was not a natural phenomenon - because no such natural phenomenon exists. Yes it would have moved, but the question is what is meant by the star stopping since of course the sky continues to move. You really should consider the possibility that your god can do miracles.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
That's what I've always thought. Why might they be interested in a king of the Jews? Because they were Jews themselves perhaps, as Larson suggests? I think that's a good guess. But don't the prophecies about the King of the Jews supposedly specify Bethlehem? Why would Jewish scholars need a star for navigation?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
Huh? Maybe because they lived in Babylon? If they were Jewish scholars, they ought to have known the prophecies. And if the prophecies specified Bethlehem, why wouldn't they just go to Bethlehem?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
If they weren't Jewish, why would they travel hundreds of miles to see the new king of the Jews? Would you travel halfway around the world to see the new king of Botswana?
So maybe they weren't Jewish.
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