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Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 196 of 892 (793325)
10-25-2016 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Percy
10-25-2016 3:31 PM


But it would be very interesting if you could provide links to the attempts making the same point that you didn't find ham-fisted and silly. And if they're also entertaining then all the better
I consider the polarization in politics to be a very important matter to the point where the entertainment value of articles is of little to no importance. Here are some articles exploring the differences between folks:
A majority of Donald Trump supporters think everything has been terrible since the 1950s | Salon.com
quote:
According to a survey published by the Public Religion Research Institute, 72 percent of likely voters supporting Donald Trump say America has changed for the worst since the 1950s. By contrast, 70 percent of likely voters supporting Hillary Clinton say that America has changed for the better since that decade.
Clinton, Trump backers differ on views of climate change, scientists | Pew Research Center
quote:
Clinton, Trump supporters worlds apart on views of climate change and its scientists
Even If He Loses, Donald Trump's Supporters Aren't Going Away - The Atlantic
quote:
If the Republican nominee loses, the millions of Americans supporting him will feel more isolated and disillusioned than ever before.
....
The same cannot be said for the millions of Americans who have looked to Trump to save them. These folks, at least the ones frequently reported onthe angry, white, blue-collar workers who are outraged or terrified that America has become some topsy-turvy multi-cultural nightmare where a hard-working man cannot make a decent living anymorewill emerge from this circus worse off than before.
They will likely be angrierand more certainthat they are being dismissed, if not outright screwed, by a self-serving establishment. Some will be all the more convinced that their economic woes can be blamed on cheap immigrant labor and reassured about their general feelings of insecurity about Muslims.
Taking Trump voters’ concerns seriously means listening to what they’re actually saying - Vox
quote:
Taking Trump voters’ concerns seriously means listening to what they’re actually saying:
...
Their problems should still be addressed, Michael Brendan Dougherty writes at the Week, not because the elite views them as virtuous and thus deserving of the help of the state and its political class, but by virtue of our common citizenship.
I agree with a lot of this. The government should help people who are materially struggling. Globalization definitely left some segments of the population struggling, and they deserve help. White people, while still economically dominant over black and Latino Americans in basically every way possible, can suffer from poverty too.
The topic is not boring. Lot's of people are discussing this stuff. I don't believe the particular article you and RAZD recommend is all that insightful. But that does not mean that I find the topic boring.
By the way, is anyone other than myself responsible for pushing the concern beyond what was in the article?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Percy, posted 10-25-2016 3:31 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Percy, posted 10-26-2016 9:35 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 197 of 892 (793332)
10-26-2016 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Percy
10-24-2016 10:40 AM


Re: What a friend said he liked about Trump
A friend recently said he liked Trump because he would stand up to other world powers and wouldn't be afraid to push the nuclear button. He's attracted to Trump for the same things that terrify me.
I agree, except that ironically it's looking like Hillary has a much more itchy trigger finger. She may be a Democrat but she is as hawkish as they come and seems to be pushing for a No-Fly zone in Syria which would absolutely call for a Russian military response.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Percy, posted 10-24-2016 10:40 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Percy, posted 10-26-2016 9:57 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 198 of 892 (793343)
10-26-2016 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by NoNukes
10-25-2016 5:33 PM


NoNukes writes:
Percy writes:
NoNukes writes:
Much has been written on the subject.
I can't recall much if anything being written in this thread about the importance of the two sides understanding each other's concerns.
My comments about what has been written were not limited to what has been posted in this thread. Or even on this board.
So maybe other people in this thread haven't seen what else has been written (that you won't link to), and so maybe they'd like to read that article and discuss it, and so maybe you should stop being a humbug and see if a discussion happens.
You seem to want to fight where there is nothing to fight about.
If you want a fight that's your business. You're being an incredible wet blanket about the article and the subject and making it clear that you're going to be as negative and unpleasant and difficult as possible to anyone who thinks otherwise. You don't want to discuss this and you found the article horrid, fine. We know now. Now go away.
The article was not all that great or insightful in expressing each sides concerns. If anything the article described Trump supporters in ways I find completely unsympathetic and attributed beliefs to those folks that were crude and stereotypical depictions of urban folk.
You have immense problems comprehending anything that's not literal. It was a light comedic piece containing a serious point. There's no rule saying all political commentary must be written in the style of the New York Times, and even it has been known to wax comedic from time to time. I know it isn't possible for you to lighten up and have some fun, but that's no reason to spoil it for everyone else.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by NoNukes, posted 10-25-2016 5:33 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 199 of 892 (793345)
10-26-2016 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by NoNukes
10-25-2016 5:50 PM


Whoa, a second response to my post. Did not happen to notice before I wrote my preceding post.
Thank you for the links, but only one is making the same point as the Wong article (yes, I read them all, not just your excerpts). Wong is characterizing how alien each side seems to the other (this is where you interpreted his comedically employed stereotypes as crude and inaccurate). He's giving reasons why the countryside feels much more alienated than the cities (the countryside was hit much harder by the recession and then didn't share in the recovery). This is different from the links you provided, except for the one.
Your articles tended to just describe the divide, while Wong tries to explain *why* there's a divide. He claims credibility on the topic because at different times in his life he's been on both sides of the fence. Not that this is unique, but whether you like his style or not (you *do* realize, I hope, that he writes for Cracked) he does have a very compelling and articulate voice.
The one article that addressed the same concerns as Wong was Taking Trump voters’ concerns seriously means listening to what they’re actually saying. It considered and rejected Wong's theory of alienation based upon feeling left out of the mainstream economy and ignored by the country at large, saying:
quote:
There is absolutely no evidence that Trump’s supporters, either in the primary or the general election, are disproportionately poor or working class. Exit polling from the primaries found that Trump voters made about as much as Ted Cruz voters, and significantly more than supporters of either Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders.
If true, then Trump supporters are not suffering from Wong's understandable alienation but from being butt-ugly mean gun-toting haters (that's a comedic stereotype not intended to be taken literally, and you don't have to tell me, I already know I'm not skilled at employing humor in my writing). I don't believe that and would much rather believe something like that the people at Trump rallies are just those who had time because they didn't have to hold down three jobs just to make ends meet. Regardless, the article goes on to describe surveys that found that Trump supporters tended to be more racist and feel more threatened by nonwhites.
It later challenges the liberal media conclusions from that data and suggests an alternative view that is very similar to Wong's, that they're victims of forces outside their control:
quote:
So it becomes very, very tempting to just ignore this evidence and insist that Trump supporters are in fact the wretched of the earth, and to connect them with every possible pathology of white America: post-industrial decay, the opioid crisis, labor force dropouts, rising middle-age mortality rates, falling social mobility, and so on.
But in the same paragraph it dismisses this possibility:
quote:
This almost always fails (globalization victims and labor force dropouts are less likely to support Trump, per Rothwell), but if there’s even a small hint of a connection, as when Rothwell found a correlation between Trump support and living in an area with rising white mortality, you’re in luck. If you can squint hard enough, the narrative will always survive.
The article goes on to consider and discard other possibilities, but in the end it concludes that, "Trump’s supporters’ concerns are heavily about race." That they're just racists is a dismaying answer, because if the goal is to engage them in dialog to find common ground, racism isn't something the other side would ever find acceptable. "Oh, you're racist, well, let's just take that into account in future policy decisions." Won't happen.
This leads to a different conclusion than Wong's, that reconciliation through understanding isn't possible, that the ancient racism of the South has risen again to freely roam the countryside, and that anyone not like themselves can just go back where they came from, or else. Bletch.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by NoNukes, posted 10-25-2016 5:50 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(5)
Message 200 of 892 (793346)
10-26-2016 9:56 AM


Things were so much better in the past.
The day started with all of us standing, hands on our heart and pledging allegiance to the flag.
We then all sang the first, third and sixth stanza of Maryland, my Maryland.
quote:
The despot's heel is on thy shore,
Maryland! My Maryland!
His torch is at thy temple door,
Maryland! My Maryland!
Avenge the patriotic gore
That flecked the streets of Baltimore,
And be the battle queen of yore,
Maryland! My Maryland!
Thou wilt not cower in the dust,
Maryland! My Maryland!
Thy beaming sword shall never rust,
Maryland! My Maryland!
Remember Carroll's sacred trust,
Remember Howard's warlike thrust,-
And all thy slumberers with the just,
Maryland! My Maryland!
Dear Mother! burst the tyrant's chain,
Maryland! My Maryland!
Virginia should not call in vain,
Maryland! My Maryland!
She meets her sisters on the plain-
"Sic semper!" 'tis the proud refrain
That baffles minions back amain,
Maryland! My Maryland!
Then we had a "Drop and Shelter" drill and a "Drop and Roll" drill for when the bomb would drop and all our clothes caught on fire. And learned that we had to keep our eyes closed tightly with one arm over our eyes so we would not go blind.
Then classes until recess and lunch.
We learned how the first thing you should know when you go into a new store is where the Fallout Shelters were. And when you walked on the street always remember where the closest Fallout Shelter was. During recess we played "Bomb" were when some one yelled "Bomb" we all dropped and rolled in the dirt with our eyes squeezed tight until the person called "All Clear". If you peaked you were blind and if you stopped rolling you were burned and the last one down was DEAD.
Soon it was summer but we couldn't go to the pool that year. It was closed because polio was too big a risk.
But I grew up and put the childish fears aside. We got a Geiger counter and all of us learned how to use it and learned basic decontamination procedures. We had a designated meeting place where we all would gather after a disaster and also a fairly complete first aid kit as well as a smaller kit we each had in our car (those of us old enough to drive).
Lots of my friends Dads were in Korea. And then the Red Chinese drove the good Chinese out of China and the US sent the 7th Fleet to patrol the Formosa Straight and the question was whether Russia would support the Commies and were we about to start another war?
But then we got a new President who told us that Russia had put missiles in Cuba with nuclear warheads that could reach every city on the East Coast and it seemed we were really going to war with Russia.
But we made it through that and the President got shot and Martin Luther King got shot and the Presidents brother got shot and there were riots all over the country and cities were burning and the police dropped a fire bomb on top of a row house where protesters were holed up and banks were getting bombed and there was helter skelter and police were turning fire hoses on people and setting dogs on them and the National Guard was shooting students and crowds were protesting the war in Vietnam.
And we got another new President and he said we won in Vietnam and brought all the troops back and authorized a break-in and built an enemies list and got impeached and then a new President who pardoned him and another new President and in Iran our embassy got invaded and the staff held hostage and every night the news was about the hostage crisis and so we got another new President and when he got shot it didn't kill him but he did spend all our money and things were so much better in the past.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 201 of 892 (793347)
10-26-2016 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Hyroglyphx
10-26-2016 12:22 AM


Re: What a friend said he liked about Trump
Clinton's position is that a Syrian no-fly zone to save lives would only be implemented through negotiation:
quote:
This would take a lot of negotiation and it would also take making it clear to the Syrians and Russians that our purpose is to provide safe zones on the ground.
The negotiations would fail. What Clinton would do next is anyone's guess, she hasn't said. A Syrian no-fly zone seems impractical for several reasons, including the one you mention, so hopefully she wouldn't do it anyway.
Changing the subject, I wonder if staffing the White House, including cabinet positions, would be like a season of The Apprentice?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-26-2016 12:22 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Taq, posted 10-26-2016 10:53 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 231 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-31-2016 9:45 PM Percy has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(3)
Message 202 of 892 (793351)
10-26-2016 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Percy
10-26-2016 9:57 AM


Re: What a friend said he liked about Trump
Percy writes:
The negotiations would fail. What Clinton would do next is anyone's guess, she hasn't said. A Syrian no-fly zone seems impractical for several reasons, including the one you mention, so hopefully she wouldn't do it anyway.
Some losses are a win. If Russia refuses to allow safe zones for innocent refugees protected by US air power, then that puts Russia in a very poor light, even poorer than the light they are currently under. This produces leverage that can be taken advantage of at the UN. It could even lead to economic sanctions against Russia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Percy, posted 10-26-2016 9:57 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-26-2016 3:54 PM Taq has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 203 of 892 (793364)
10-26-2016 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Taq
10-26-2016 10:53 AM


Re: What a friend said he liked about Trump
quote:
Some losses are a win. If Russia refuses to allow safe zones for innocent refugees protected by US air power, then that puts Russia in a very poor light, even poorer than the light they are currently under. This produces leverage that can be taken advantage of at the UN. It could even lead to economic sanctions against Russia.
A no-fly zone isn't about providing safe zones for civilians. It is 100% different from a safe zone.
Amazing that Russia used to be accused of tying to split off the western part of Syria into an Alawite nation (which could cause the Druze to split off into their own state around jebel Druze (mountain of the Druze) then a natural result would be a domino effect leading to an independent Christian nation (which naturally would come), then an independent Kudish nation, and then even an independent (non Ismaili) Shia nation (despit the fact that standard 12er Shia Muslims are only about 3% of the population while Alawites are 8%, Druze, 2.5%, and non-reincarnation/ non avatar (standard) Ismailis are about 1.2% for a total of 12% Ismailis).
This is just more deliberate garbling.
(Trump is a big proponent of a safe zone but 100% against a no-fly zone)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Taq, posted 10-26-2016 10:53 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2016 4:47 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 204 of 892 (793368)
10-26-2016 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by LamarkNewAge
10-26-2016 3:54 PM


"safe zones" ... riiiiiiiiiight
A no-fly zone isn't about providing safe zones for civilians. It is 100% different from a safe zone.
... "providing safe zones for civilians." -- the next big lie of the warmongers.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-26-2016 3:54 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 10-27-2016 9:18 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 205 of 892 (793382)
10-27-2016 7:34 AM


Gary Johnson, Bill Weld, Libertarians, drop out ???
Just when you thought the election couldn't get weirder ...
The Libertarian Party Just Gave Up On Winning, Tacitly Endorsed Hillary Over Trump
quote:
The Libertarian vice-presidential nominee, Bill Weld, has accepted that his ticket’s longshot bid for the presidency is doomed, and indirectly demanded that voters give their votes to Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton instead. He will remain on the ticket but will solely work towards stopping Trump for the remainder of the election cycle.
The Libertarian ticket, usually popular with a small margin of voters with a particularly poor understanding of basic economics and the Constitution, were looking like they were going to put up a surprisingly strong performance as Republican nominee Donald Trump dragged the GOP brand into the mud, until a series of inexcusable gaffes by presidential nominee Gary Johnson destroyed what little credibility they had.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 206 of 892 (793385)
10-27-2016 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by RAZD
10-26-2016 4:47 PM


Re: "safe zones" ... riiiiiiiiiight
In other words...stay in your "zone" and you wont get hurt.
Didn't Hitler try that with the Jews?
jar writes:
...things were so much better in the past.
This election will soon be in the past! I wonder if anyone will someday comment nostalgically about the times we live in now?
I pray for our future.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2016 4:47 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by RAZD, posted 10-27-2016 9:40 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 208 by frako, posted 10-27-2016 1:27 PM Phat has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 207 of 892 (793386)
10-27-2016 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
10-27-2016 9:18 AM


Re: "safe zones" ... riiiiiiiiiight
Didn't Hitler try that with the Jews?
Ghettos
Like Palestine
Build a wall ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 10-27-2016 9:18 AM Phat has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 208 of 892 (793391)
10-27-2016 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
10-27-2016 9:18 AM


Re: "safe zones" ... riiiiiiiiiight
Didn't Hitler try that with the Jews?
Or america with the natives
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 10-27-2016 9:18 AM Phat has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 209 of 892 (793393)
10-27-2016 3:22 PM


Pence state rigging the election
Indiana officials are trying to block almost 45,000 black citizens from voting
quote:
Police raided the largest voter registration drive in the state with the lowest voter turnout in the country.
Roughly 45,000 newly registered voters in Indiana  almost all of whom are black  may not be allowed to vote next month after state police targeted the state’s largest voter registration drive, forcing it to shut down its operation.
Police raided the Indiana Voter Registration Project (IVRP) offices on October 4, seizing documents and equipment and forcing the group to cease its get-out-the-vote efforts one week before the end of the state’s registration period. Bill Buck, a spokesperson for the liberal nonprofit Patriot Majority USA which runs the IVRP, told ThinkProgress that IVRP could have registered about 5,000 more voters in that additional week.
... Bill Bursten, chief public information officer for the Indiana State Police, told ThinkProgress that law enforcement is investigating whether IVRP is violating fraud and forgery laws.
It will be up to each prosecutor to review the completed investigation and take whatever action they, as the local prosecuting authority, deem appropriate, Bursten said. Investigations of this nature are complicated and can take an extended period of time to complete.
The fix is in for Indiana ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Percy, posted 10-27-2016 5:16 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 214 by AZPaul3, posted 10-28-2016 4:43 PM RAZD has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 210 of 892 (793395)
10-27-2016 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by RAZD
10-27-2016 3:22 PM


Re: Pence state rigging the election
Here's a more recent NYT article: Voter Registration Effort Spurs an Inquiry in Indiana
Indiana secretary of State Connie Lawson has made two charges:
  • That the Indiana Voter Registration Program was submitting registrations with incomplete and inaccurate information. Lawson charged them with voter fraud. They were shut down in early October.
  • That the Indiana Statewide Voter Registration System, the database Lawson used to check the alleged fraudulent registrations, contains "an unusually high number of date of birth and first name changes." Lawson claims this is also voter fraud.
So Lawson found irregularities in voter registration forms by checking against the state database that she says is also full of irregularities. Nice work!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by RAZD, posted 10-27-2016 3:22 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by NoNukes, posted 10-27-2016 7:37 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 213 by RAZD, posted 10-28-2016 12:34 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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