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Author | Topic: The 2016 United States Presidential Election | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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But it would be very interesting if you could provide links to the attempts making the same point that you didn't find ham-fisted and silly. And if they're also entertaining then all the better I consider the polarization in politics to be a very important matter to the point where the entertainment value of articles is of little to no importance. Here are some articles exploring the differences between folks: A majority of Donald Trump supporters think everything has been terrible since the 1950s | Salon.com
quote: Clinton, Trump backers differ on views of climate change, scientists | Pew Research Center
quote: Even If He Loses, Donald Trump's Supporters Aren't Going Away - The Atlantic
quote: Taking Trump voters’ concerns seriously means listening to what they’re actually saying - Vox
quote: The topic is not boring. Lot's of people are discussing this stuff. I don't believe the particular article you and RAZD recommend is all that insightful. But that does not mean that I find the topic boring. By the way, is anyone other than myself responsible for pushing the concern beyond what was in the article? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member
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A friend recently said he liked Trump because he would stand up to other world powers and wouldn't be afraid to push the nuclear button. He's attracted to Trump for the same things that terrify me. I agree, except that ironically it's looking like Hillary has a much more itchy trigger finger. She may be a Democrat but she is as hawkish as they come and seems to be pushing for a No-Fly zone in Syria which would absolutely call for a Russian military response. "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
NoNukes writes: Percy writes: NoNukes writes: Much has been written on the subject. I can't recall much if anything being written in this thread about the importance of the two sides understanding each other's concerns. My comments about what has been written were not limited to what has been posted in this thread. Or even on this board. So maybe other people in this thread haven't seen what else has been written (that you won't link to), and so maybe they'd like to read that article and discuss it, and so maybe you should stop being a humbug and see if a discussion happens.
You seem to want to fight where there is nothing to fight about. If you want a fight that's your business. You're being an incredible wet blanket about the article and the subject and making it clear that you're going to be as negative and unpleasant and difficult as possible to anyone who thinks otherwise. You don't want to discuss this and you found the article horrid, fine. We know now. Now go away.
The article was not all that great or insightful in expressing each sides concerns. If anything the article described Trump supporters in ways I find completely unsympathetic and attributed beliefs to those folks that were crude and stereotypical depictions of urban folk. You have immense problems comprehending anything that's not literal. It was a light comedic piece containing a serious point. There's no rule saying all political commentary must be written in the style of the New York Times, and even it has been known to wax comedic from time to time. I know it isn't possible for you to lighten up and have some fun, but that's no reason to spoil it for everyone else. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Whoa, a second response to my post. Did not happen to notice before I wrote my preceding post.
Thank you for the links, but only one is making the same point as the Wong article (yes, I read them all, not just your excerpts). Wong is characterizing how alien each side seems to the other (this is where you interpreted his comedically employed stereotypes as crude and inaccurate). He's giving reasons why the countryside feels much more alienated than the cities (the countryside was hit much harder by the recession and then didn't share in the recovery). This is different from the links you provided, except for the one. Your articles tended to just describe the divide, while Wong tries to explain *why* there's a divide. He claims credibility on the topic because at different times in his life he's been on both sides of the fence. Not that this is unique, but whether you like his style or not (you *do* realize, I hope, that he writes for Cracked) he does have a very compelling and articulate voice. The one article that addressed the same concerns as Wong was Taking Trump voters’ concerns seriously means listening to what they’re actually saying. It considered and rejected Wong's theory of alienation based upon feeling left out of the mainstream economy and ignored by the country at large, saying:
quote: If true, then Trump supporters are not suffering from Wong's understandable alienation but from being butt-ugly mean gun-toting haters (that's a comedic stereotype not intended to be taken literally, and you don't have to tell me, I already know I'm not skilled at employing humor in my writing). I don't believe that and would much rather believe something like that the people at Trump rallies are just those who had time because they didn't have to hold down three jobs just to make ends meet. Regardless, the article goes on to describe surveys that found that Trump supporters tended to be more racist and feel more threatened by nonwhites. It later challenges the liberal media conclusions from that data and suggests an alternative view that is very similar to Wong's, that they're victims of forces outside their control:
quote: But in the same paragraph it dismisses this possibility:
quote: The article goes on to consider and discard other possibilities, but in the end it concludes that, "Trump’s supporters’ concerns are heavily about race." That they're just racists is a dismaying answer, because if the goal is to engage them in dialog to find common ground, racism isn't something the other side would ever find acceptable. "Oh, you're racist, well, let's just take that into account in future policy decisions." Won't happen. This leads to a different conclusion than Wong's, that reconciliation through understanding isn't possible, that the ancient racism of the South has risen again to freely roam the countryside, and that anyone not like themselves can just go back where they came from, or else. Bletch. --Percy
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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The day started with all of us standing, hands on our heart and pledging allegiance to the flag.
We then all sang the first, third and sixth stanza of Maryland, my Maryland.
quote: Then we had a "Drop and Shelter" drill and a "Drop and Roll" drill for when the bomb would drop and all our clothes caught on fire. And learned that we had to keep our eyes closed tightly with one arm over our eyes so we would not go blind. Then classes until recess and lunch. We learned how the first thing you should know when you go into a new store is where the Fallout Shelters were. And when you walked on the street always remember where the closest Fallout Shelter was. During recess we played "Bomb" were when some one yelled "Bomb" we all dropped and rolled in the dirt with our eyes squeezed tight until the person called "All Clear". If you peaked you were blind and if you stopped rolling you were burned and the last one down was DEAD. Soon it was summer but we couldn't go to the pool that year. It was closed because polio was too big a risk. But I grew up and put the childish fears aside. We got a Geiger counter and all of us learned how to use it and learned basic decontamination procedures. We had a designated meeting place where we all would gather after a disaster and also a fairly complete first aid kit as well as a smaller kit we each had in our car (those of us old enough to drive). Lots of my friends Dads were in Korea. And then the Red Chinese drove the good Chinese out of China and the US sent the 7th Fleet to patrol the Formosa Straight and the question was whether Russia would support the Commies and were we about to start another war? But then we got a new President who told us that Russia had put missiles in Cuba with nuclear warheads that could reach every city on the East Coast and it seemed we were really going to war with Russia. But we made it through that and the President got shot and Martin Luther King got shot and the Presidents brother got shot and there were riots all over the country and cities were burning and the police dropped a fire bomb on top of a row house where protesters were holed up and banks were getting bombed and there was helter skelter and police were turning fire hoses on people and setting dogs on them and the National Guard was shooting students and crowds were protesting the war in Vietnam. And we got another new President and he said we won in Vietnam and brought all the troops back and authorized a break-in and built an enemies list and got impeached and then a new President who pardoned him and another new President and in Iran our embassy got invaded and the staff held hostage and every night the news was about the hostage crisis and so we got another new President and when he got shot it didn't kill him but he did spend all our money and things were so much better in the past.
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Clinton's position is that a Syrian no-fly zone to save lives would only be implemented through negotiation:
quote: The negotiations would fail. What Clinton would do next is anyone's guess, she hasn't said. A Syrian no-fly zone seems impractical for several reasons, including the one you mention, so hopefully she wouldn't do it anyway. Changing the subject, I wonder if staffing the White House, including cabinet positions, would be like a season of The Apprentice? --Percy
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Percy writes: The negotiations would fail. What Clinton would do next is anyone's guess, she hasn't said. A Syrian no-fly zone seems impractical for several reasons, including the one you mention, so hopefully she wouldn't do it anyway. Some losses are a win. If Russia refuses to allow safe zones for innocent refugees protected by US air power, then that puts Russia in a very poor light, even poorer than the light they are currently under. This produces leverage that can be taken advantage of at the UN. It could even lead to economic sanctions against Russia.
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
quote: A no-fly zone isn't about providing safe zones for civilians. It is 100% different from a safe zone. Amazing that Russia used to be accused of tying to split off the western part of Syria into an Alawite nation (which could cause the Druze to split off into their own state around jebel Druze (mountain of the Druze) then a natural result would be a domino effect leading to an independent Christian nation (which naturally would come), then an independent Kudish nation, and then even an independent (non Ismaili) Shia nation (despit the fact that standard 12er Shia Muslims are only about 3% of the population while Alawites are 8%, Druze, 2.5%, and non-reincarnation/ non avatar (standard) Ismailis are about 1.2% for a total of 12% Ismailis). This is just more deliberate garbling. (Trump is a big proponent of a safe zone but 100% against a no-fly zone)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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A no-fly zone isn't about providing safe zones for civilians. It is 100% different from a safe zone. ... "providing safe zones for civilians." -- the next big lie of the warmongers. by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Just when you thought the election couldn't get weirder ...
The Libertarian Party Just Gave Up On Winning, Tacitly Endorsed Hillary Over Trump quote: Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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In other words...stay in your "zone" and you wont get hurt.
Didn't Hitler try that with the Jews?
jar writes: ...things were so much better in the past. This election will soon be in the past! I wonder if anyone will someday comment nostalgically about the times we live in now? I pray for our future. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Didn't Hitler try that with the Jews? Ghettos Like Palestine Build a wall ... by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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frako Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined:
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Didn't Hitler try that with the Jews? Or america with the natives Edited by frako, : No reason given.Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Indiana officials are trying to block almost 45,000 black citizens from voting
quote: The fix is in for Indiana ... by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Here's a more recent NYT article: Voter Registration Effort Spurs an Inquiry in Indiana
Indiana secretary of State Connie Lawson has made two charges:
So Lawson found irregularities in voter registration forms by checking against the state database that she says is also full of irregularities. Nice work! --Percy
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