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Author | Topic: The God That Paul Marketed Over Time. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
For the sake of this discussion, lets assume that Paul wrote much of the New Testament. This website suggests that Paul wrote Romans, 1st & 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1st & 2nd Thessalonians 1st & 2nd Timothy, Titus, Philemon and there is a debate regarding Hebrews, so we can leave that out.
In another topic, jar and I had the following exchange:
Phat writes:
Would you go so far as to say that the God that Paul marketed be opposed, reviled, condemned?jar writes: Which God that Paul marketed? His sales pitch changed over time. But yes, some of the things Paul tried to market should be opposed, reviled, condemned! So in this topic, lets examine the "God" that Paul marketed in the 13 books attributed to him. Faith & Belief, please. Edited by Admin, : Minor format fix. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Admin Director Posts: 13014 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Thread copied here from the The God That Paul Marketed Over Time. thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Lots of my response and initial argument is addressed to jar, but I want anyone and everyone to feel free to step into the discussion.
jar writes: I don't see that there was any time that Paul did not believe that Christs return was imminent. I would argue that Pauls zeal and passion were based on a life transforming event.
Paul's product was quite different ... broader in scope and acceptance of non-observance of so called laws and tradition, more open to adopting pagan practices, cultures and rites and more concerned with social practices than John. His was a pragmatic product that evolved from a simple End of Times position to one of long term organization and evolution.Pauline Christianity is based on Paul amplifying and explaining what Jesus really meant. What you see in Paul's Epistles is Jesus through the filter of Paul. Would not the Gospels be Jesus through the "filter" of their authors also? You emphasize Jesus life. Paul and others emphasized the death, burial, and resurrection. Why do people fail to see that many were transformed by the renewing of their minds?? Do you think that they were simply convinced (and sold) a new product. What keeps you from believing in the power of the death, burial, and resurrection? The fact that you yourself have not drank the koolaid? (By the way...I am convinced that conversion is genuine--though not always all at once. I honestly believe that the Holy Spirit enters a man upon simple confession. I will admit, however, that this doctrine was first described by Paul.
jar writes: What specifically were his obsessions? Gradually Paul's product came to dominate the early church partially because he seemed to live longer, was more open to compromise with outside authority and the fact that his conversion did nothing to diminish his obsessions. One other thing: I dont believe that Paul was marketing an unknown God...but lets start by going to the scriptures...shall we start in Romans?
Authorship Of The Pauline Epistles Edited by Phat, : fixed Edited by Phat, : added linkChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Did he define imminent as two thousand years and counting?
I don't see that there was any time that Paul did not believe that Christs return was imminent. Phat writes:
A lot of people have life-transforming events. Sometimes they transform your life for the better, sometimes for the worse.
I would argue that Pauls zeal and passion were based on a life transforming event.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Did he define imminent as two thousand years and counting? How do we know that Pauls words were not mean't for a much later audience? The authors themselves had no way of knowing when Jesus would return but they were confidant it would happen.
A lot of people have life-transforming events. Transformation is always for the better. Change can be better or worse. Transformation is not something you do, though it is something you continually choose through doing.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: How do we know that Pauls words were not mean't for a much later audience? The authors themselves had no way of knowing when Jesus would return but they were confidant it would happen. We can know that Paul's words were not meant for a much later audience because he addresses his writings telling us who it was meant for. But the authors (the early ones) did know when Jesus would return since Jesus told them he would return while the audience he was addressing were still alive.
Phat writes: Transformation is always for the better. Change can be better or worse. Transformation is not something you do, though it is something you continually choose through doing. Now that is not just word salad and nonsense, it is word salad and nonsense that is self-contradictory.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You said yourself that Paul believed Christ's return was "imminent". Today's end-timers say Christ's return is (still) imminent. Tell them that the "signs" they are seeing are meant for a much later audience, two thousand years from now.
The authors themselves had no way of knowing when Jesus would return but they were confidant it would happen. Phat writes:
No. That distinction doesn't work. Being paralyzed and confined to a wheelchair would definitely be a life-transforming event but few people would say it was for the better.
Transformation is always for the better. Change can be better or worse. Phat writes:
Of course transformation can be something you do, like overcoming an addiction.
Transformation is not something you do... Phat writes:
You seem to be obsessed with the idea of somebody else doing it for you - or to you.
... though it is something you continually choose through doing.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes:
Look at Romans. Paul starts it off by saying You seem to be obsessed with the idea of somebody else doing it for you - or to you.Rom 1:4-6 writes: Right away Paul talks of something we receive from Jesus. The emphasis is never on what we do in and of ourselves but rather what we either do for Christ or what He does through us.
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. Rom 2:28-29 writes: Notice how the mans transformation is by the Spirit and his praise is from God. A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. This scripture supports the idea that we are transformed...we do not transform ourselves. As for the idea that Christianity is all about what we do, Paul makes it clear that of ourselves we can do nothing.Rom 3:10-12 writes:
10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." Paul does speak of what we must do, but he says we cannot do it by ourselves. We need God in us. It is God that does what needs to be done through us. We have the responsibility to do, yes...but it is as co-laborers with Christ. Again, we cannot do it ourselves.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No, he says that HE (and the other apostles) received "grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith." Right away Paul talks of something we receive from Jesus. "We" are not all apostles. "We" are called by the apostles to obey. How can "we" obey without doing?
Phat writes:
You're imagining that emphasis.
The emphasis is never on what we do in and of ourselves but rather what we either do for Christ or what He does through us. Phat writes:
Again it comes back to what I have asked you many times: What does it mean to believe in somebody? Does it just mean believing that the messenger existed or does it mean believing in the message? Paul does speak of what we must do, but he says we cannot do it by ourselves. We need God in us. What does it mean to "have God in you"? Doesn't it mean to internalize the message? If you internalize the message - i.e. if you DO what Jesus told you to do - you do "have God in you" whether you say, "Lord! Lord!" or not. And if you DON'T do what Jesus told you to do, you DON'T "have God in you".
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: You still dont get it. The messenger not only existed...He exists now.
Does it just mean believing that the messenger existed or does it mean believing in the message? Rom 9:31-33 writes: The metaphor of Jesus as the rock...the stone...and then Paul later calls us living stones. You seem to think that the source is unimportant...just as jar does. This is a mistake in that you think that it is we who determine our own inner peace.
Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written:"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Israel blew it. Period. Rom 10:3 writes: By preaching that the source(GOD) is unimportant and that it is all about what we do you have eliminated the teaching concerning knowing God through Christ. You claim that GOD is unknowable and that even if He were around you may well have issues with Him. Like Israel, you are establishing your own righteousness. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. To your credit, many Christians don't do enough while many others--non religious included--do far more human good in the world. I'll leave it up to God to judge the masses. Paul seems to believe and preach that knowing Jesus is crucial. Rom 10:9-12 writes: Now we know that faith without works is dead. Works are a part of the equation, to be sure. That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." But concerning the idea that the source is unimportant, consider Pauls quote:
Rom 11:18-19 writes:
Our "root" is not "star stuff" as Sagan once suggested. Our root is our very Creator and the purpose He put within us. Love God. Love others. Its just that simple. You do not support the root, but the root supports you. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
YOU don't get it. The messenger is irrelevant. Whether he exists now or whether he ever existed doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you believe about the messenger. HE wanted you to believe in the message.
You still dont get it. The messenger not only existed...He exists now. Phat writes:
I have never said any such thing. I say that we have to take responsibility. If we just sit around having faith, watching our fellow man suffer, we will never have inner peace. You seem to think that the source is unimportant...just as jar does. This is a mistake in that you think that it is we who determine our own inner peace. It is not the faith that brings inner peace. The faith is supposed to produce the works. If there are no works, there is no real faith. Faith without works is dead. And frankly, the inner peace is less important than the works.
Phat writes:
You keep ignoring the question: What does it mean to "know God"? What does it mean to "have God in you"? What does it mean to "believe in God"? By preaching that the source(GOD) is unimportant and that it is all about what we do you have eliminated the teaching concerning knowing God through Christ. How can you know God without doing what He wants you to do? How can you have God in you without doing what He wants you to do? How can you believe in God without doing what He wants you to do? The DOING is the sign that your faith is real. It's the fruit that keeps your dead branch from being thrown into the fire. It's what distinguishes the sheep from the goats.
Phat writes:
You're twisting the metaphor. The root is not a source that gives the plant purpose. It's a part of the plant. The root nourished the plant and the plant nourished the root.
Our root is our very Creator and the purpose He put within us.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
But the authors (the early ones) did know when Jesus would return since Jesus told them he would return while the audience he was addressing were still alive. This appears to be the God that you market...one who makes mistakes. Lets see if Paul agrees with you. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It's not what I market, it is what the Bible Stories assert Jesus said.
quote:
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
There are many explanations for this. Lets see if any of them hold water.
`1) Wycliffe writes: Matt 24:32-36This generation shall not pass away. To explain generation (genea) here as the lifetime of the disciples obligates one to seek the fulfillment of all these events by A.D. 70 AD. But that is manifestly impossible unless one spiritualizes the second coming of Christ. However, genea also can mean "race" or "family," and this yields good sense here. In spite of terrible persecution, the Jewish nation will not be exterminated, but will exist to share the blessings of the Millennial reign. In support of this view, Alford points out that Christians of ancient times continued to expect the Lord's coming even after the apostles and their contemporaries had passed away (New Testament for English Readers, p. 169). 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away. Cf. Rom 8:19-22; 1 Cor 7:31; Rev 21:1. The truth of these solemn predictions of Christ will not experience the slightest alteration. 36. The exact moment of fulfillment, however, lies in the authority of the Father alone (cf. Acts 1:7). No scheme of date-setting by men is possible. 2) The Dispensationalists believe that Jesus original mission was only for Israel and the Jewish people until after the Jewish people freely and adamantly rejected their messiah. At that point, salvation was open for everyone.(As you believe)Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You seem to think that the source is unimportant.
ringo writes: I have never said any such thing. (Yet if Jesus is God, the messenger is in fact the source) The Greatest Commandment supports both of our views. It supports my contention that the source(or messenger) is important.(Love the Lord thy God will all thy heart, soul, mind,and strength) And it supports yours: Love your neighbor as yourself.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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