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Author Topic:   The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 267 (793408)
10-28-2016 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
10-27-2016 11:08 PM


Re: To Get Started...
I know that people can make up all kinds of ways to explain away the contradictions, inconsistencies, horrific behaviors and factual errors found in the Bible stories and that that is the function and job description of the Apologist but that does not change what is actually written.
Note that in your first example what is actually presented is just more evidence that the Bible really is inconsistent and contradictory and then that inconsistency and those contradictions are used to explain why the original statement is NOT a false assertions.
That makes no sense and holds no water. It is laughable.
The second example is also simply moving goal posts and irrelevant to the question of when Jesus said he would return. It has nothing to do with when Jesus said he would return. And the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah while he was still alive anyway. As usual the Dispensationalists are just making shit up.
But wait, there is more.
If you look at the writings the earliest "Christian" works (those written by people identifying themselves as followers of Christ) they all speak of Jesus return as imminent; about to happen. It is only the later writings, the Johannine literature and 2 Peter; material first written late in the early formation period most likely even after 70CE when most if not all of the original Apostles and Disciples were dead or very old that we see the transition to an unknown and unknowable future return.
It's pretty clear that those that were there when Jesus said:
quote:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. - Matthew 24:34
... that the understanding was that Generation meant the lifetime of those people in attendance.
Another claim often made that you did not mention is the absurd claim that the events of 70CE are the actual fulfillment; an even more absurd claim than those above.
The events of 70CE are another area simply ignored or misrepresented by most Christian teachings. It was a complex political and economic disturbance that had almost nothing to do with beliefs and was ultimately the result of the rise of the Jewish Zealots and an internal Jewish Civil war.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 10-27-2016 11:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 10-28-2016 11:16 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 267 (793410)
10-28-2016 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
10-28-2016 9:56 AM


On To The Epistles
It's pretty clear that those that were there when Jesus said:
quote:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. - Matthew 24:34
... that the understanding was that Generation meant the lifetime of those people in attendance.
Thats because the people had not yet rejected their messiah. You claim that a God who foreknows our damnation is evil. I maintain that Gods desire is that none will perish, but that we individually or collectively have the freedom to choose a path apart from His desire.
The original plan was that the Jews would accept their messiah and that the mission on earth would be complete and that the Gentiles would learn from the converted Jews.
I know that you and Ringo both say that Christianity is all about what one does but I maintain that you cannot do Christianity without knowing Christ. And accepting Him for who He is. The Jews clearly rejected this invitation---as a people.
When Jesus taught the Jews, they already knew the law.
Paul later explained what happened to the Jewish salvation.(They ignored the source and thought that they themselves were their own source)
You seem to be making the same error.
But lets go on to the Epistles. I am curious why you reject Pauls teachings.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 10-28-2016 9:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 10-28-2016 11:51 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 18 of 267 (793412)
10-28-2016 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
10-27-2016 11:12 PM


Re: To Get Started...
Phat writes:
You seem to think that the source is unimportant.
ringo writes:
I have never said any such thing.
I should have been more explicit with my quote. I was referring to, "...you think that it is we who determine our own inner peace."
Phat writes:
The Greatest Commandment supports both of our views.
It supports my contention that the source(or messenger) is important.
(Love the Lord thy God will all thy heart, soul, mind,and strength)
And it supports yours:
Love your neighbor as yourself.
I can do this all day: What does it mean to love God?
Does it mean to blather mindlessly:
Let us praise God. O Lord...
Ooh, You are so big...
So absolutely huge.
Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, and...
And barefaced flattery.
But You are so strong and, well, just so super.
Fantastic.
Amen.
Or do we love God BY loving our neighbour?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 10-27-2016 11:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 10-29-2016 5:49 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 267 (793413)
10-28-2016 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
10-28-2016 11:16 AM


Re: On To The Epistles
Phat writes:
jar writes:
It's pretty clear that those that were there when Jesus said:
quote:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. - Matthew 24:34
... that the understanding was that Generation meant the lifetime of those people in attendance.
Thats because the people had not yet rejected their messiah. You claim that a God who foreknows our damnation is evil. I maintain that Gods desire is that none will perish, but that we individually or collectively have the freedom to choose a path apart from His desire.
The original plan was that the Jews would accept their messiah and that the mission on earth would be complete and that the Gentiles would learn from the converted Jews.
Again, that is just more nonsense. The Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah while he was still alive. They had rejected Jesus as their messiah before those words were even supposed to have been spoken.
Phat writes:
I know that you and Ringo both say that Christianity is all about what one does but I maintain that you cannot do Christianity without knowing Christ. And accepting Him for who He is. The Jews clearly rejected this invitation---as a people.
When Jesus taught the Jews, they already knew the law.
Paul later explained what happened to the Jewish salvation.(They ignored the source and thought that they themselves were their own source)
You seem to be making the same error.
And there you go making the same error you continually make by misrepresented what I believe and making irrelevant assertions.
Of course Jews rejected Jesus, and still reject Jesus AS Marketed by Christians. They do not reject Jesus as a prophet or as someone who spoke based on what God imparted.
They are Jews not Christians.
Phat writes:
But lets go on to the Epistles. I am curious why you reject Pauls teachings.
Again, that depends on which of Paul's teachings you reference. I agree with much that Paul taught but also believe that most of Christianity, all of Fundamental and Evangelical Christianity, misrepresent what Paul taught by taking pieces parts out of context and failing to understand both the nature of Paul the man, the era in which he lived, the audience he addressed and what he actually taught.
Paul actually emphasizes doing as opposed to professing throughout his interoffice memos and it is only by taking pieces out of context that anyone can say otherwise.
What I reject is not Paul's teachings but rather the modern Apologists bumper sticker versions of what Paul taught.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 10-28-2016 11:16 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 10-28-2016 12:49 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 267 (793416)
10-28-2016 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
10-28-2016 11:51 AM


Re: On To The Epistles
jar writes:
I agree with much that Paul taught but also believe that most of Christianity, all of Fundamental and Evangelical Christianity, misrepresent what Paul taught by taking pieces parts out of context and failing to understand both the nature of Paul the man, the era in which he lived, the audience he addressed and what he actually taught.
Paul actually emphasizes doing as opposed to professing throughout his interoffice memos and it is only by taking pieces out of context that anyone can say otherwise.
What I reject is not Paul's teachings but rather the modern Apologists bumper sticker versions of what Paul taught.
OK. Thanks for making that clear. Now lets move onto the Epistles. What I primarily want to touch on in this discussion is how Paul saw God,how Paul saw Jesus Christ, and how a modern reader might see Jesus Christ through the teaching. Shall we start with Romans?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 10-28-2016 11:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 10-28-2016 4:05 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 267 (793426)
10-28-2016 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
10-28-2016 12:49 PM


Re: On To The Epistles
Phat writes:
What I primarily want to touch on in this discussion is how Paul saw God,how Paul saw Jesus Christ, and how a modern reader might see Jesus Christ through the teaching. Shall we start with Romans?
It's your thread, start wherever you want but understand that quote mining will be met with references to the context and counter examples showing how the marketing changed both with audience and time.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 10-28-2016 12:49 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 10-29-2016 11:07 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 267 (793449)
10-29-2016 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
10-28-2016 4:05 PM


Pauls Belief
jar writes:
... but understand that quote mining will be met with references to the context and counter examples showing how the marketing changed both with audience and time.
To start with, the God whom Paul marketed is not a figment of his imagination. He is writing about God as He knew Him...through Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:16-17 writes:
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
In a modern context, which I will use in my defense of Paul and in support of the living God whom he wrote of, salvation is for everyone who believes...not for everyone convinced by evidence.
Rom 1:18-20 writes:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
Lots of people these days claim that God is anything but plainly evident. A word study on the word "suppress" in the original Greek shows that the word means that the truth is not only being silenced but is in fact being actively and forcefully withheld. In the day and age that we live in, Pauls words are more applicable than ever before.
Is there any compelling reason why Paul was talking only to Romans of that time rather than to us today? Does the evidence show that Paul was simply introducing a new religion rather than spreading the news about an actual God...made known to Paul through Jesus Christ and by extension made available to whosoever hears and believes the message?
Rom 1:21-22 writes:
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Much the same as is occurring today. Folks talk about God casually as if He is a human creation. Paul certainly did not see God as a product marketed by his own vain imagination.
Edited by Phat, : fixed spelling
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 10-28-2016 4:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 10-29-2016 11:25 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 267 (793450)
10-29-2016 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
10-29-2016 11:07 AM


Re: Pauls Belief
You seem to be replying to me but not responding to anything I have ever said.
I don't think anyone thinks Paul was marketing anything he believed was made up but the fact is that Paul never met Jesus or had any connection to Jesus and that the tale of his conversion as told in the Bible stories changed over time and depending on the audience. The initial earliest account of the story does not even mention Jesus and it is only in the later embellished versions that Jesus appears. Yet even in the embellished versions there is no indication Paul ever met or knew anything about Jesus other than what he was taught by earlier Christians.
Phat writes:
Is there any compelling reason why Paul was talking only to Romans of that time rather than to us today?
Yes, of course. As has been pointed out Paul addressed Romans and said who it was meant for.
Phat writes:
Paul certainly did not see God as a product marketed by his own vain imagination.
Well, actually he did. Paul marketed the God he saw as a product and again that changed depending on the audience. The character of God he marketed (and he never marketed Jesus as God) also changed over time.
AbE:
Phat writes:
To start with, the God whom Paul marketed is not a figment of his imagination. He is writing about God as He knew Him...through Jesus Christ.
I really need to address this.
You are making an assertion that frankly you simply cannot support. You may be able to claim that Paul thinks is writing about God as He knew Him or about Jesus as he thinks he knows him but there is absolutely no evidence Paul ever met Jesus or knew anything about Jesus other than second and third hand information.
You can make claims about what you think you know or about what you think Paul might have been thinking but there is no way you can support any assertion like the above.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 10-29-2016 11:07 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 10-29-2016 3:25 PM jar has replied
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 01-12-2017 8:09 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 267 (793454)
10-29-2016 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
10-29-2016 11:25 AM


Re: Pauls Belief
The God whom Paul marketed is not a figment of his imagination. He is writing about God as He knew Him...through Jesus Christ.
jar writes:
You are making an assertion that frankly you simply cannot support.
Why not? Consider what happened on the Damascus Road. We see Saul of Tarsus, a Jewish zealot who is against the message being spread by converted Jews.
Acts 8:3 writes:
But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.
What he had against these converts I'll never know...but then came the Damascus Road.
Acts 9:1-6 writes:
Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
Whether or not these are second hand accounts is irrelevant to the story. The Biblical authors chose to put the words in red due to a consensual agreement that Saul heard a voice...a voice that claimed to be Jesus Christ. A man who was breathing murderous threats became a convert. As you yourself said, "Paul switched sides."
Granted there is no evidence apart from what is written. I might ask, however, if you routinely question belief without evidence. If so, you are wise. What is not wise, however, is to refuse to believe without evidence. This is known as suppressing the truth.
jar writes:
Paul marketed the God he saw as a product and again that changed depending on the audience. The character of God he marketed (and he never marketed Jesus as God) also changed over time.
Lets talk about this God that Paul saw.
The story suggests that Paul was converted after seeing nothing.
Edited by Phat, : for some reason, my quotes get deleted when attempting to make a post
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 10-29-2016 11:25 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 10-29-2016 4:37 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 267 (793455)
10-29-2016 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
10-27-2016 11:51 AM


Questions
ringo writes:
What does it mean to "know God"? What does it mean to "have God in you"? What does it mean to "believe in God"?
Good questions. Would you say that Saul believed in God? If so, what changed on the road to Damascus?
ringo writes:
How can you know God without doing what He wants you to do?
And yet Saul did far different things than Paul the convert did. What changed?
ringo writes:
How can you have God in you without doing what He wants you to do?
Evidently Saul of Tarsus did not have God "in" him.
ringo writes:
How can you believe in God without doing what He wants you to do?
Which is my point. The evidence only shows us that Saul changed.
The author suggests that it was the voice of Jesus that caused Saul/Paul to change.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 10-27-2016 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 10-30-2016 2:18 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 267 (793456)
10-29-2016 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
10-29-2016 3:25 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
Phat writes:
Whether or not these are second hand accounts is irrelevant to the story. The Biblical authors chose to put the words in red due to a consensual agreement that Saul heard a voice...a voice that claimed to be Jesus Christ. A man who was breathing murderous threats became a convert. As you yourself said, "Paul switched sides."
Granted there is no evidence apart from what is written. I might ask, however, if you routinely question belief without evidence. If so, you are wise. What is not wise, however, is to refuse to believe without evidence. This is known as suppressing the truth.
We've been over this many times Phat.
The story of Paul's conversion varies over time and what you are quoting is one of the later embellished accounts and definitely NOT a quote from Paul or even in any of his epistles. The claim that it is Jesus speaking is a later addition to the story and not found in the earlier versions.
That actually is evidence Phat; evidence that the authors changed the story to reflect their marketing.
Paul changed sides but did not really change. His basic nature and behavior was the same after the conversion as it was before.
And not believing without evidence is not called suppressing the truth except by the ignorant.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 10-29-2016 3:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 10-29-2016 5:42 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 267 (793457)
10-29-2016 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
10-29-2016 4:37 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
jar writes:
The story of Paul's conversion varies over time and what you are quoting is one of the later embellished accounts and definitely NOT a quote from Paul or even in any of his epistles. The claim that it is Jesus speaking is a later addition to the story and not found in the earlier versions.
I traced the words back to the KJV. What evidence do we have earlier than that that clearly shows the change?
And please show me what was...as you claim...actually said?
jar writes:
Paul changed sides but did not really change.
Again, what evidence do you have for this assertion? Where can you show me that Saul of Tarsus and Paul behaved essentially the same way? Scripture seems to show otherwise.
And not believing without evidence is not called suppressing the truth except by the ignorant.
Not all truth is evident. Consider the Jews. They rejected Jesus. Aside from their thinking that logic, reason, and tradition ...and their own conclusions were more persuasive than the plain truth living before their eyes!
Rom 11:7-8 writes:
What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.
And that same stupor exists among the educated and otherwise intelligent people of this day and age as well.
But lets focus on the Bible and its many books and translations. Perhaps we can establish whether the God written of in scripture is with us today...apart from our imaginations or not.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 10-29-2016 4:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 10-29-2016 7:42 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 267 (793458)
10-29-2016 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
10-28-2016 11:48 AM


Loving God
ringo writes:
do we love God BY loving our neighbour?
I cant argue with you on this point.
And quoting Monty Python may get a laugh, but prayer is for our benefit...not His.
We need to get it through our heads that we wont change the world or explore the universe until we solve our own problems. I maintain that knowing God helps us by taming our egos and our own sense of deity.
Like Clint once said, "He is a legend in his own mind".
We need to realize that we are not our own source of wisdom and love.
\

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 10-28-2016 11:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 10-30-2016 2:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 267 (793459)
10-29-2016 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
10-29-2016 5:42 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
Phat writes:
I traced the words back to the KJV. What evidence do we have earlier than that that clearly shows the change?
And please show me what was...as you claim...actually said?
Phat, it's not a matter of which version of the Bible is involved it is a matter of the many retellings of the story in different parts of the Bible. In Acts alone there are three or more different versions of the story.
Phat writes:
Again, what evidence do you have for this assertion? Where can you show me that Saul of Tarsus and Paul behaved essentially the same way? Scripture seems to show otherwise.
Saul was dogmatic and a zealot, Paul was dogmatic and a zealot; Saul was a misogynist, Paul was a misogynist; Saul was convinced his position was the only right position, Paul was convinced his postition was the only right position.
I see no change in character.
Phat writes:
Not all truth is evident. Consider the Jews. They rejected Jesus. Aside from their thinking that logic, reason, and tradition ...and their own conclusions were more persuasive than the plain truth living before their eyes!
Again, you are asserting belief as though it was fact. You believe the Jews rejected the truth while they believe that you rejected the truth.
Paul would likely agree with them on that. Paul did not speak of Jesus and God as one individual.
Phat writes:
Perhaps we can establish whether the God written of in scripture is with us today...apart from our imaginations or not.
Which of the many contradictory characters called God in scripture are you talking about? So far no one has ever been able to show that there is "The God" of scripture.
The God Paul marketed is certainly not Jesus.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 10-29-2016 5:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 10-30-2016 1:47 AM jar has replied
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 10-30-2016 9:47 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 267 (793467)
10-30-2016 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
10-29-2016 7:42 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
jar writes:
Phat, it's not a matter of which version of the Bible is involved it is a matter of the many retelling of the story in different parts of the Bible. In Acts alone there are three or more different versions of the story.
I see essentially one version. The story may have been embellished for King Agrippa, but who are we to say it was not God who told Paul to go to the Gentiles, since the Jews didnt trust him?
Lets look at the places in Acts where the story is mentioned to see if it is consistent.
1) The story of Damascus road starts in Acts 9:4-7.
2) it is also mentioned in Acts 22:7-14. Essentially the same story.
3)Admittedly Paul embellishes the story when reciting it to King Agrippa. (Acts 26:14) but it may well be that Paul was beginning to see Gods plan for him unfold and was able to more fully testify as to his calling in life.
jar writes:
Saul was dogmatic and a zealot, Paul was dogmatic and a zealot; Saul was a misogynist, Paul was a misogynist; Saul was convinced his position was the only right position, Paul was convinced his position was the only right position.
I see no change in character.
I do.
Saul approved of the stoning of Stephen. Saul killed Jews who believed in Jesus as God.
Paul listened to what he was told to do by God. Paul was persecuted. Saul voluntarily repented and changed his name. He knew he had sinned. Paul may have had the same basic character traits he had before---but I could make a case that his daily behavior and motive had done a 180 turn.
jar writes:
You believe the Jews rejected the truth while they believe that you rejected the truth.
What supposed truth did I reject? I can tell you that they rejected the position of Jesus Christ over them. Many do the same today.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 10-29-2016 7:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 10-30-2016 9:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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