Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 267 (793483)
10-30-2016 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
10-30-2016 1:47 AM


Re: Pauls Belief
Phat writes:
I see essentially one version.
Then reread Acts.
In Acts 9:7 the KJV says:
quote:
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
In Acts 22:9 the KJV says:
quote:
And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
While in the earliest version found in 1 Cor 15 there is no mention of light or voice or time or place or any details other than that Jesus appeared to him as "one born out of due time".
quote:
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
The story does change over time a gets embellished just like the Great Commandment changes overtime and gets embellished.
That is a classic trait of folktales and legends.
Phat writes:
What supposed truth did I reject?
From the Jewish perspective you reject the truth that there is only one God and that Jesus is not a god.
Phat writes:
Paul may have had the same basic character traits he had before---but I could make a case that his daily behavior and motive had done a 180 turn.
So you agree that Paul's change was not in his character but only in where it was applied. He changed sides. He did not kill non-believers because as a Christian he no longer had the power or authority to do that however once Christianity did acquire that power it did start doing just that, kill all those who did not join. He still framed Christianity as HE saw it, not as James or the other Apostles saw it. He did condemn the approach that others took.
Sorry but I still see little if any change.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 10-30-2016 1:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 32 of 267 (793487)
10-30-2016 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
10-29-2016 4:29 PM


Re: Questions
Phat writes:
Would you say that Saul believed in God? If so, what changed on the road to Damascus?
I don't think there was much difference between Saul's belief and Paul's. What changed on the road to Damascus was the way he externalized that belief.
Phat writes:
And yet Saul did far different things than Paul the convert did. What changed?
Why did Winston Churchill change from a Liberal to a Conservative (or vice versa, whichever it was)? Was it because he changed? Or was it because he thought one party could forward his aims better than the other?
Phat writes:
Evidently Saul of Tarsus did not have God "in" him.
Both Saul and Paul did what (they thought) God wanted them to do. Saul took the Jewish hierarchy at their word and Paul took Jesus at His word. Who's to say which of them, if either, was right?
Phat writes:
The evidence only shows us that Saul changed.
It shows that his idea of what God wanted him to do changed.
Phat writes:
The author suggests that it was the voice of Jesus that caused Saul/Paul to change.
He would, wouldn't he? That was the message he was selling. It's like Henry Ford telling you that God wants you to buy his cars.
Edited by ringo, : "Whose" --> "Who's"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 10-29-2016 4:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 10-31-2016 1:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 33 of 267 (793488)
10-30-2016 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
10-29-2016 5:49 PM


Re: Loving God
Phat writes:
We need to get it through our heads that we wont change the world or explore the universe until we solve our own problems.
That's nonsense. Our own problems are ongoing. We can't sit and watch the world burn until our own petty problems are solved. We HAVE to solve the world's problems alongside our own.
Phat writes:
We need to realize that we are not our own source of wisdom and love.
On the contrary, we need to have our own internal source of wisdom and love. How it gets internalized is optional. If you want to believe it came from God or Long John Silver that's fine, as long as it's internalized and not just an outward profession.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 10-29-2016 5:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 34 of 267 (793489)
10-30-2016 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
10-29-2016 7:42 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
Saul was dogmatic and a zealot, Paul was dogmatic and a zealot; Saul was a misogynist, Paul was a misogynist; Saul was convinced his position was the only right position, Paul was convinced his postition was the only right position.
I see no change in character.
Saul was not just a zealot for his position. He actually served folks he opposed up for execution to the point that after his conversion, the disciples crossed the street when they saw him coming. There was no sign of this level of excess after his conversion. This is one of the marked changes in Paul over Saul. And surely we could make something out of the fact that his conversion occurred essentially overnight.
Paul of course was the same person as Saul. That's not different from any other converted folk. But to say that there were no changes in his character does not seem to match what we believe we know about him.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 10-29-2016 7:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 10-31-2016 4:24 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 267 (793507)
10-31-2016 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
10-30-2016 2:18 PM


Re: Questions
Both Saul and Paul did what (they thought) God wanted them to do.
It is my belief that Saul (as well as many Jews today) believed in an unknown God. You may make a case that the God in us is only our own internalized belief, but I will argue that only when God becomes known---through Jesus Christ---do we actually have Gods Spirit within us.
I will agree that folks always do what they think God wants them to do, and that even believers can mistakenly substitute their own bias,prejudice, and will and attribute it to God in them.
we need to have our own internal source of wisdom and love.
Why cant we ask God in and let Him be our source? It does not absolve us of responsibility...rather it enhances it.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 10-30-2016 2:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 11-01-2016 11:42 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 267 (793511)
10-31-2016 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by NoNukes
10-30-2016 9:47 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
As I pointed out above one reason might be that Paul the Christian lacked the power base of Saul the Jew. Saul could denounce people and have then executed but Paul simply could not. He could rail against other Apostles and their teachings but that was about all he could do.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 10-30-2016 9:47 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 37 of 267 (793546)
11-01-2016 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
10-31-2016 1:56 PM


Re: Questions
Phat writes:
... I will argue that only when God becomes known---through Jesus Christ---do we actually have Gods Spirit within us.
And I will continue to point out that the only sign that "we actually have Gods Spirit within us" is when we bear fruit:
quote:
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Phat writes:
Why cant we ask God in and let Him be our source? It does not absolve us of responsibility...rather it enhances it.
How on earth would that enhance responsibility?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 10-31-2016 1:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 11-01-2016 12:07 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 267 (793548)
11-01-2016 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
11-01-2016 11:42 AM


Jesus Enhances The Ability To Be Responsible.
How on earth would that enhance responsibility?
The same way that people usually do better on tests with a full stomach.
if I am depressed, in debt, unhealthy, or just plain tired I will be much less able to leave my house and be anywhere near as effective at helping others.
How am I going to help you with your depression if I am depressed myself?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 11-01-2016 11:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 11-01-2016 12:43 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 39 of 267 (793549)
11-01-2016 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
11-01-2016 12:07 PM


Re: Jesus Enhances The Ability To Be Responsible.
Phat writes:
if I am depressed, in debt, unhealthy, or just plain tired I will be much less able to leave my house and be anywhere near as effective at helping others.
How am I going to help you with your depression if I am depressed myself?
What does any of that have to do with responsibility?
You're suggesting that you're more comfortable "with God in you" and thus you're more capable of helping others? But the reality is that people who profess to "have God in them" often make excuses for not helping others - the old "feed the soul before the stomach" nonsense, for example.
I would say that seeing other people in need makes me uncomfortable, which enhances my sense of responsibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 11-01-2016 12:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 11-02-2016 8:56 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 40 of 267 (793572)
11-02-2016 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
11-01-2016 12:43 PM


Works vs Grace
I see your point also. Thanks for sharing...
Now lets get back to Paul.
Rom 4:2-6 writes:
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about-but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Paul bought up faith credited as righteousness and that works appear to be an obligation rather than a justification.
So if Faith is credited as righteousness, does faith in and of itself enhance responsibility?
James says no. Faith without works is dead. One question might be what context is James different from Romans?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 11-01-2016 12:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-02-2016 10:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 11-02-2016 3:18 PM Phat has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 41 of 267 (793582)
11-02-2016 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
11-02-2016 8:56 AM


Re: Works vs Grace
One question might be what context is James different from Romans?
Paul was writing to new Roman churches and explaining to them how salvation came through the gospel of Jesus, so the belief side was more important at that point in their faith.
James was writing to Jewish Christians who already believed and was explaining how their faith in Christ should play out in their lives.
Paul seems to be more for new Christians while James seems to be for more mature Christians.
The faith part is important at first, but once you're a believer it is more important for you to actually do something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 11-02-2016 8:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 11-02-2016 11:56 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 267 (793584)
11-02-2016 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by New Cat's Eye
11-02-2016 10:50 AM


Re: Works vs Grace
Also James was still trying to reform Judaism and not create a new separate religion. Like Jesus James was a Jew and still involved directly in the Jewish theology.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-02-2016 10:50 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-02-2016 1:21 PM jar has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


(1)
Message 43 of 267 (793585)
11-02-2016 12:32 PM


What Paul actually said.
I feel like I better add actual scripture quotations to this (heavy in commentary) discussion, so people can see some of the more relevant words of Paul, as opposed to a bunch of claims that are taken at full face value as reflecting Paul's views on salvation and judgment day issues specifically as it relates to non Christians.
People like to quote from Galatians 5:4 and the (perhaps unreliable with regard to quotes of Paul) Acts of the Apostles when it comes to this "salvation" and "eternal life" judgment issue.
quote:
Galatians 5:2-5
Listen! I, Paul, am telling you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 Once again I testify to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obliged to obey the entire law. 4 You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love.
NRSV
People love to take that word "grace" and say that means that only Christians will be judged positively. Paul really wrote many of his letters on the fly (quickly) and perhaps didn't mean for every last word to be legalistically studied.
Here is what he said in Roman 2 about non Christian gentiles. (Ill quote verse 12 to the very end of the chapter)
quote:
Romans 2:12-25
All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.
17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast of your relation to God 18 and know his will and determine what is best because you are instructed in the law, 19 and if you are sure that you are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth, 21 you, then, that teach others, will you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You that forbid adultery, do you commit adultery? You that abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You that boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 For, as it is written, The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.
25 Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So, if those who are uncircumcised keep the requirements of the law, will not their uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you that have the written code and circumcision but break the law. 28 For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. 29 Rather, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heartit is spiritual and not literal. Such a person receives praise not from others but from God.
NRSV
Read the very end of Galatians 5 now.
quote:
Galatians 2:13-26
For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence,but through love become slaves to one another. 14 For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 15 If, however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another.
NRSV
"Grace" (which he says that Jesus offers and Christian followers enjoy)might mean a free and easy ride to righteousness and judgment, but is it the only way according to Paul's letters?
btw, does all this talk of "freedom" in Paul's writings meant he opposed actual human-chattel slavery? (nope!)
Read verse 1 of chapter 5
quote:
Galatians 5:1
For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
All scholars regard the epistle to Philemon as from the pen of Paul. Ephesians and Colossians are generally doubted to be his own writings, but see Ephesians 6:5 and Colossians 3:22.
Perhaps one shouldn't read to much into a single word. "Grace" might just mean a free and easy ride. "Just $9.99 for $500 worth of goods. Call now. The first 100 callers even get $200 more in goods." Paul beat that commercial by about 1900 or more years. It doesn't exclude other options, does it?
Here is what Paul said in the Acts of the Apostles. Be warned that quotes of Paul in Acts might not be reliable. (I'm not calling the author of Luke-Acts a liar because he did a good job of not embellishing words of Jesus (to have stuff like the c. 100 A.D. John 3:16 kind of crap dishonestly put into Jesus' mouth) in his Gospel. It really does seem to be based on sources that could be considered credible, of that the author ("Luke") though were credible. Luke 1:1-4 is impressive in that the author admits that his gospel is late and that he used many sources. The gospel of Luke can respectably be placed alongside Mark and Matthew, and it is a credit to the author considering his Acts book has lots of later "you must believe in the specific name Jesus" (or along those lines) theology in it. His gospels are about works (see Luke 2:8-14 for "Luke's" quote of John the Baptist answering how people achieve their "repentance" Luke 3 NRSVUE - The Proclamation of John the Baptist - Bible Gateway) not exclusivity with regards to a name or banner tribalism.)
Acts 17 and Paul in Athens:
quote:
Acts 17:22-34
Then Paul stood in front of the Areopagus and said, Athenians, I see how extremely religious you are in every way. 23 For as I went through the city and looked carefully at the objects of your worship, I found among them an altar with the inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. 26 From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find himthough indeed he is not far from each one of us. 28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said,
‘For we too are his offspring.’
29 Since we are God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of mortals. 30 While God has overlooked the times of human ignorance, now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will have the world judged in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.
32 When they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some scoffed; but others said, We will hear you again about this. 33 At that point Paul left them. 34 But some of them joined him and became believers, including Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
NRSV
I find it interesting that Paul never attacked actual established revelatory religions like Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. He seemed to be responding to the endless (thousands and thousands) worshipping of every little stick and stone idol type of Gods and perhaps the endless sacrifices that were always offered. The Greco-Roman world had lots of dime a dozen type of Gods that people didn't believe. Remember the Spartacus movie and how that Senator responded, when asked about which of the endless god's he believes in (when purchasing animals to sacrifice)? He answered, "publically all of them, privately, none of them".

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 11-02-2016 1:32 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 44 of 267 (793589)
11-02-2016 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
11-02-2016 11:56 AM


Re: Works vs Grace
Also James was still trying to reform Judaism and not create a new separate religion. Like Jesus James was a Jew and still involved directly in the Jewish theology.
The problem that True ChristiansTM have is that they always try to turn the multiple different writings in the Bible into one single cohesive and comprehensive writing.
"Paul said this but James said that... what kind of context do we have to invent in order to keep them saying the same thing?"
Well, they were writing different things to different people for different purposes. It's okay if they deviate from each other.
...
Out of curiosity, do you think that James was Jesus' brother?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 11-02-2016 11:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 11-02-2016 2:01 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 267 (793592)
11-02-2016 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by LamarkNewAge
11-02-2016 12:32 PM


Re: What Paul actually said.
I find it interesting that Paul never attacked actual established revelatory religions like Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. He seemed to be responding to the endless (thousands and thousands) worshipping of every little stick and stone idol type of Gods and perhaps the endless sacrifices that were always offered.
Thats because Christianity superceded the other religions through the monotheistic affirmation of Jesus Christ. Zoroastrianism claims to be monotheistic but is more of a dualistic expression of good/evil. There are no new revelations from those old religions.
Paul actually did address the point of an unknown god, establishing once and for all time that Jesus represents the fullness of God--revealed through human character.
Look at your scriptural quotes:
5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love.
In other words, the law was fulfilled in Christ. While we can argue on the idea that doing is always better than simply believing, I contend that Paul explains that doing will never get you closer to Heaven.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-02-2016 12:32 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-02-2016 1:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024