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Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 241 of 892 (793594)
11-02-2016 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by RAZD
10-29-2016 8:58 AM


Re: gerrymandering again
RAZD writes:
Every state that has gerrymandered districts is using their power to stay in power, which is basically what this kind of rigging is all about.
So Massachusetts would be an example for you.
Indeed, look at this:
There are 2 mathematical concepts that may come into play here - 1. fence efficiency, which is the area divided by the square of the perimeter length - and 2. convex hull, which is the smallest polygon that encloses the area, being able to connect, with a straight line, any 2 points in the polygon without leaving the polygon.
Clearly these are not the case above, but there are difficulties in holding to 1 and 2. They should only be a guideline. Look at the boundary of District 8, perhaps the most egregious.
Edited by xongsmith, : swap FE math around to make efficiency measure higher for better fences
Edited by xongsmith, : straight lines!

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by RAZD, posted 10-29-2016 8:58 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by AZPaul3, posted 11-02-2016 2:40 PM xongsmith has replied
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 242 of 892 (793598)
11-02-2016 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by RAZD
11-02-2016 9:53 AM


Re: because ... hacking
4. Every citizen should be able to vote without question or restriction of any kind. The federal government could issue photo ID voter cards through the post office just as passports are issued. They can be issued on the 18th birthday for natural born citizens, and issued when naturalized citizens pass their citizenship requirements.
Open question. Is the issuance of voter ID something Congress can do? I am pretty sure that the Congress as currently constituted would not be inclined to do issue a national card, and there is also the question of possible abuse of any universal ID card system.
But I agree with the sentiment that voter ID is just fine if the government is willing to go to some effort to make sure everyone has the id. Perhaps if progressives were to expend their energy in that direction, the steam could be taken out of efforts to restrict voting on the state level.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by RAZD, posted 11-02-2016 9:53 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by xongsmith, posted 11-02-2016 2:06 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 253 by RAZD, posted 11-04-2016 8:44 AM NoNukes has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(2)
Message 243 of 892 (793600)
11-02-2016 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by NoNukes
11-02-2016 1:57 PM


Re: because ... hacking
NoNukes asks:
Open question. Is the issuance of voter ID something Congress can do?
Yeah. Already done. It's called your Social Security card.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by NoNukes, posted 11-02-2016 1:57 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by NoNukes, posted 11-02-2016 2:26 PM xongsmith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 892 (793601)
11-02-2016 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by xongsmith
11-02-2016 2:06 PM


Re: because ... hacking
Yeah. Already done. It's called your Social Security card.
So you believe that the Federal Government can require states to accept a Social Security card as voter ID? Even for local elections? I don't believe the feds can do that.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by xongsmith, posted 11-02-2016 2:06 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by xongsmith, posted 11-02-2016 3:00 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 245 of 892 (793604)
11-02-2016 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by xongsmith
11-02-2016 1:47 PM


Re: gerrymandering again
Look at the boundary of District 8, perhaps the most egregious.
And that's tame by comparison.
Have a gander at Ohio's 9th District. Four discontinuous areas segmented by other districts. Yes, the 9th is a Democrat district keeping all those democrats out of the surrounding four Republican districts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by xongsmith, posted 11-02-2016 1:47 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by xongsmith, posted 11-02-2016 2:55 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 246 of 892 (793605)
11-02-2016 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by xongsmith
11-02-2016 1:47 PM


Re: gerrymandering again
Using my new At Large System (see Message 111) for Massachusetts:
%    Representatives
Total votes, 2014:    2186827  100.00%       9.00       9
Democrat              1667595   76.25%       6.86       7
Republican*            519331   23.75%       2.14       2
THEREFORE:
Highest 7 Dem finishers are in
Highest 2 Rep finishers are in
Currently the Dems have ALL 9 seats, hence GUILTY of gerrymandering!
===================================================================
* I could not find Independent and Libertarian and Green votes, so I lumped them all in Republican votes.
from a District spreadsheet i made
1 0.723 227075 0.277 0.8615 195625.1125 31449.8875
2 0.706 235813 0.294 0.853 201148.489 34664.511
3 0.249 230825 0.751 0.6245 144150.2125 86674.7875
4 0.706 255297 0.294 0.853 217768.341 37528.659
5 0.698 256486 0.302 0.849 217756.614 38729.386
6 0.135 278919 0.865 0.5675 158286.5325 120632.4675
7 0.794 176077 0.206 0.897 157941.069 18135.931
8 0.756 261781 0.244 0.878 229843.718 31937.282
9 0.096 264554 0.904 0.548 144975.592 119578.408
2186827 1667495.6805 519331.3195
0.7625183339 0.2374816661
242980.777777778 6.8626650048 2.1373349952
Edited by xongsmith, : more additions

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by xongsmith, posted 11-02-2016 1:47 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 247 of 892 (793607)
11-02-2016 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by AZPaul3
11-02-2016 2:40 PM


Re: gerrymandering again
Azpaul writes:
Have a gander at Ohio's 9th District.
Check my Message 111!

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by AZPaul3, posted 11-02-2016 2:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by AZPaul3, posted 11-02-2016 3:08 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 248 of 892 (793608)
11-02-2016 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by NoNukes
11-02-2016 2:26 PM


Re: because ... hacking
NoNukes writes:
So you believe that the Federal Government can require states to accept a Social Security card as voter ID? Even for local elections? I don't believe the feds can do that.
No, I don't believe the states will let that happen. I can see George Wallace on the steps right now.
"What we got here is the Napoleonic Code! What the wife gets, the husband gets!"

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by NoNukes, posted 11-02-2016 2:26 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 249 of 892 (793610)
11-02-2016 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by xongsmith
11-02-2016 2:55 PM


Re: gerrymandering again
Check my Message 111
OK
What do you think? There must be something wrong with this idea. Right?
Help me out?
Too many Republicans!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by xongsmith, posted 11-02-2016 2:55 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 250 of 892 (793632)
11-02-2016 7:31 PM


Could have been in Humor but more appropriate here:

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 251 of 892 (793674)
11-03-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by xongsmith
11-02-2016 12:56 PM


Re: because ... hacking
...and get a receipt of your own ballot (like a carbon copy) with your same ballot's long serial number you take home. Ballots are serial-numbered randomly. Later you can look up on the website and see how they counted the ballot with your serial number, which no one but you, yourself, knows.
And then you show that to the guy who offered to pay you $100 for your vote. And he hands over the cash.
Isn't this sort of vote buying what we are trying to avoid?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by xongsmith, posted 11-02-2016 12:56 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 252 of 892 (793687)
11-03-2016 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by nwr
11-03-2016 11:58 AM


Re: because ... hacking
nwr asks, hypothetically:
Isn't this sort of vote buying what we are trying to avoid?
Well, sure - dishonesty will be able find a way into everything. Why is this expected to be a worse problem than what's going on now?
Edited by xongsmith, : dash

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by nwr, posted 11-03-2016 11:58 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 253 of 892 (793692)
11-04-2016 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by NoNukes
11-02-2016 1:57 PM


Re: because ... hacking
Open question. Is the issuance of voter ID something Congress can do? I am pretty sure that the Congress as currently constituted would not be inclined to do issue a national card, and there is also the question of possible abuse of any universal ID card system.
Well I have elsewhere compared this to the govt issuing draft cards. Then there are passports that you can get at any post office, with an option for the traditional book style or a card style with photo. The card style is good for surface travel to Mexico and Canada, so it is useful for workers that cross the border to work. Thus the post offices already have the ability to issue photo ID cards, and they are conveniently located to most neighborhoods (more so than DMV stations).
But I agree with the sentiment that voter ID is just fine if the government is willing to go to some effort to make sure everyone has the id. Perhaps if progressives were to expend their energy in that direction, the steam could be taken out of efforts to restrict voting on the state level.
But it could certainly be made an option. And with a Presidential Decree that such cards must be accepted it would take the steam out.
Progressives have spent a lot of energy to get people registered but the regressive states have set so many road-blocks to getting the approved type ID that it takes 8 or more trips for many people in the target groups.
The photo ID law was designed to seem benign; most people have a drivers license and a relatively permanent home address. It is when you delve into the regulations of what you need to get one that the intent becomes clear. Working within those regulations is made more difficult by obstructive administration.
This would be an end-run around that.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by NoNukes, posted 11-02-2016 1:57 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by NoNukes, posted 11-04-2016 9:53 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 254 of 892 (793695)
11-04-2016 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by NoNukes
11-02-2016 1:29 PM


Re: because ... hacking
I'm not going to dispute that this is possible and even easy. My question is about your statement about who "usually" commits this kind of fraud. What evidence is there regarding a pattern of abuse that we can label "usually"?
Means, Motive and Opportunity ... Who has the most Opportunity? People that handle the machines or set them up, which is usually the party in power in the state.
(8 minutes)
Democracy Watch is non-partisan and not a conspiracy group.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 255 of 892 (793697)
11-04-2016 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by RAZD
11-04-2016 8:44 AM


Re: because ... hacking
But it could certainly be made an option. And with a Presidential Decree that such cards must be accepted it would take the steam out.
Presidential decree? My question was about whether Congress had the authority, to establish a national ID card that the states were bound to respect at election time. It is unclear that they have the power to do such a thing. But it is certainly clear that the president does not have such power.
The photo ID law was designed to seem benign; most people have a drivers license and a relatively permanent home address.
Except for the huge number of folks who don't.
It is when you delve into the regulations of what you need to get one that the intent becomes clear.
There is also some deliberate deck stacking. In North Carolina, gun permits count as voter IDs, but student IDs even from the state universities do not. Pretty clear example of targeting some folks for voting right extinction. Very seldom are the ID laws just about ID. In North Carolina the changes involved curtailing early voting, eliminating registration of high school students at their schools, cancelling voter locations on college campuses, etc.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by RAZD, posted 11-04-2016 8:44 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by RAZD, posted 11-04-2016 4:53 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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