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Author Topic:   Can the Christian God exist without the Bible?
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 56 of 106 (667712)
07-11-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
07-11-2012 11:46 AM


Re: God exists or He does not
Phat writes:
We can honestly dare say that God is not necessary, but "likely" implies knowing...and we simply don't know. I could just as easily state that God is quite likely, but I would be no closer to the truth than you are.
Likelihood usually branches out from what we do know. A unicorn is less likely than a horse. A magic unicorn is even less likely.
A god is also less likely than a horse. A specific god, like the Christian God, is less likely than an unspecified god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 07-11-2012 11:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 07-12-2012 2:15 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 66 of 106 (667804)
07-12-2012 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
07-12-2012 2:15 AM


Re: God exists or He does not
Phat writes:
since when does probability determine a Deity?
That's why I used the word "likelihood" instead of "probability". Probability can be calculated. Likelihood can't be calculated but it can be compared. If you hear hoofbeats, horses are more likely than zebras. If you see visions, mental aberrations are more likely than spooky entities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 07-12-2012 2:15 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 70 of 106 (669765)
08-02-2012 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hawkins
08-01-2012 10:47 PM


Hawkins writes:
He must leave humans with an infallible reference for humans to follow.
An interactive reference would be better than a supposedly "infallible" one. If people didn't understand their instructions, they could "google" for clarification.
A "perpetual Jesus" who lived forever, sitting down with publicans and sinners of every generation would be more effective than a dusty book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Hawkins, posted 08-01-2012 10:47 PM Hawkins has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Stile, posted 08-03-2012 10:52 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 11-02-2016 4:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 78 of 106 (672450)
09-08-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Hawkins
09-07-2012 3:07 PM


Hawkins writes:
There are 2 kind of gods. One demands your faith, the other not. As for the gods who never demanded your faith, their existence has nothing to do with you.
You're leaving out door number three: a God who tells us absolutely nothing about Himself but punishes us for not figuring Him out for ourselves.
Hawkins writes:
It happens that Christianity is such a religion....
It "happens" to fit the criteria because you reverse-engineered the criteria to fit it. If you honestly thought about what a God "should" do, you might come to a very different conclusion. You might even realize that a supposedly infallible source is a pretty bad idea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Hawkins, posted 09-07-2012 3:07 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 1:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 83 of 106 (673320)
09-18-2012 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 1:02 PM


Hawkins writes:
That's because you mistakenly assume what He should do.
You're the one who said there are only two possible kinds of god. I'm just adding another assumption to yours.
Hawkins writes:
And as long as 1/3 humans consider themselves a believer, It's an indicator that He already tells enough for His sheep to answer His call and make a return.
What about the other 2/3? How do you conclude that 1/3 is right and 2/3 are wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 1:02 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 3:04 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 87 of 106 (673342)
09-18-2012 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 3:04 PM


Hawkins writes:
Moreover, logically you have to have one faith or another which can be identified by the following question, does afterlife exist?
No faith is required. I haven't seen any evidence of an afterlife so I don't "believe" in an afterlife but I don't disbelieve either. There might be a solution to the global warming problem or their might not be. I have no "belief" one way or the other. No faith is required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 3:04 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 89 of 106 (673355)
09-18-2012 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 4:03 PM


Hawkins writes:
Certain witnesses claim that there's a bomb near your house. They'd die for the claimed truth.
So how do you decide to leave or stay? Evidence?
I would stand back temporarily. Then I would want to see some evidence that there really is a bomb, not just the word of some guy. I certainly would NOT adopt a life-long belief that there was a bomb without some real evidence.
That's the same approach that I take with claims about God. Unless I have some evidence, how do I know which god is going to punish me for believing in the wrong god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:03 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 93 of 106 (673366)
09-18-2012 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 4:30 PM


Hawkins writes:
The two option is to leave by recognize its chance, or to stay as a belief that it's a hoax. Waiting for evidence is not an option because you have only one life to loose.
But waiting at a reasonably safe distance is an option. It's the only sensible option. It's the option you would choose. You'd wait at a safe distance until there was some evidence that there really was a bomb. If you waited there for three months and it still hadn't gone off, you'd move back into your house. You would not continue "playing it safe" forever. You wouldn't give up your house forever based on the word of some witness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:30 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:45 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 99 of 106 (673381)
09-18-2012 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 4:45 PM


Hawkins writes:
But in reality, you can die at any moment.
Pascal's wager, eh? If you don't bet, you can't win. The problem with that approach is that there's only one way to win and lots of ways to lose. If you bet on the Christian God, Allah might punish you. You might take shelter from the bomb in your house and get shot by your neighbour for trespassing. Unless you have some evidence of real danger, you might be exposing yourself to other dangers.
Edited by ringo, : Spellig.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:45 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 103 of 106 (793623)
11-02-2016 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
11-02-2016 4:38 PM


Re: In Perpetuity
Phat writes:
I say that while you are right, inner wisdom results from prayer, study, meditation and communion.
Where's the value in "inner wisdom"?
Phat writes:
If you did good works on behalf of Joes Bar & Grill, the message you were selling would be quite different from the message coming from someone who advertised personal relationship with God versus simply warm fuzzies and full bellies around a bar.
Why do good works "on behalf" of anybody? Why not just do them because they're good? Why does there have to be a "message" at all except to do good?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 11-02-2016 4:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
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