Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 256 of 892 (793701)
11-04-2016 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Theodoric
10-16-2016 10:09 AM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Hi Theo,
I haven't been on the forum much lately. Just wondering if you will respond to my last post, Message 987, before the election:
Theo writes:
Hillary Clinton is not a great choice, but she is a good choice. She can be the instrument of a lot of good change for the people of the United States and people around the world.
We are encouraged to support our positions on this forum via evidence. So, while Hillary was Secretary of State, was there any actual evidence of her being an instrument of goodness?
As Secretary of State for FOUR years, what good did Hillary accomplish for the people around the world?
Be specific.
To help get you started, I'll start you off with examples from these nations:
1. Iraq. Only a few other Democrats were criminal and sociopathic enough to ENTHUSIASTICALLY support Bush Jr in his illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq. A million innocent Iraqi deaths. 4500 american military deaths. Creation of ISIL. (The secular regime overthrown by [Hillary supported] U.S. forces was replaced by Islamist fundamentalists, and the ensuing sectarian civil war has produced horrific cases of sexual violence including not least the enslavement of women by extremist groups like the Islamic State.) Zcomm » Page not found
2. Lebanon (Clinton also backed Israel’s massive 2006 assault on Lebanon, as well as the 2009 and 2014 wars on the Gaza Strip, which killed many hundreds of female non-combatants.) Zcomm » Page not found
3. Honduras ({Hillary} supported the coup in Honduras, which resulted in a dramatic upsurge in violence against women, with prominent female peasant leaders, union organizers, and indigenous rights advocates among the victims) Your access to this site has been limited
4. Saudi Arabia (She’s called for closer strategic ties with Saudi Arabia, the most misogynist government on the planet.) Your access to this site has been limited by the site owner I ask again, while Hillary takes bribes/donations from Saudi Arabia for military weaponry, how many woman have been falsely executed by beheading?
5. Bahrain. (She supported Bahrain’s brutal crackdown on its pro-democracy movement, including prominent women leaders.) Your access to this site has been limited by the site owner
6. Yeman. (Yemeni human rights activist Tawakkol Karman, who was awarded the 2011 Nobel Peace Prize for her leadership in the country’s pro-democracy movement, has spoken out against then-Secretary Clinton’s lack of support in the struggle against the U.S.-backed autocratic regime of Ali Abdullah Saleh) Your access to this site has been limited by the site owner
7. Morocco. (A particularly egregious case of Hillary Clinton’s selective support for the rights of women is her strong support for the autocratic monarchy in Morocco. For example, in 2012 during the height of a local campaign to repeal an article of the Moroccan penal code that absolves a male rapist if he consents to marry his victim Clinton praised the Moroccan government for having protected and expanded women’s rights. Just weeks after Clinton commended the regime, Amina Filali a 16-year old Moroccan girl who’d been raped at the age of 15 and forced to marry her rapist, who subsequently battered and abused her burned herself to death.) Your access to this site has been limited by the site owner
8. Afghanistan. Yeah, life for EVERYbody in Afghanistan improved dramatically under Secretary of State Clinton.
9. Libya. Supported the defeat and death of Gadaffi. Chaos and spreading terrorism ruled afterwards. Later, Hillary chuckled, and chuckled, and chuckled, about the gruesome death of Gaddafi.
10. Syria. Supports the defeat of Bashar al-Assad, with the likely result of chaos and spreading terrorism ruled afterwards (See Libya above)
11. Israel/Gaza/Palestine. Hillary actually defended, DEFENDED, Israel murdering the peace flotilla from Turkey.
12. Egypt. Supported/defended dictator Mubarek until he was on the verge of being deposed.
13. United States military personal with ultra high suicide rates and Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.
Edited by dronestar, : added: "Later, Hillary chuckled, and chuckled, and chuckled, about the gruesome death of Gaddafi."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Theodoric, posted 10-16-2016 10:09 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Theodoric, posted 11-04-2016 5:24 PM dronestar has not replied
 Message 262 by Percy, posted 11-04-2016 6:00 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 257 of 892 (793703)
11-04-2016 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Theodoric
10-16-2016 10:09 AM


Re: The Clinton Machine
quote:
6. Yeman. (Yemeni human rights activist Tawakkol Karman, who was awarded the 2011 Nobel Peace Prize for her leadership in the country’s pro-democracy movement, has spoken out against then-Secretary Clinton’s lack of support in the struggle against the U.S.-backed autocratic regime of Ali Abdullah Saleh) Your access to this site has been limited by the site owner
With regard to the text above, I compiled a very edited summary. What do you think of this?:
Saudi Arabia, an oppressive, theocratic monarchy, is a barbaric human rights horror show. A major exporter of world terrorism, have we forgotten that most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis?
According to WikiLeaks, in 2009, then U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton wrote, Donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al-Qaida, the Taliban and other terrorist groups.
Ongoing Saudi air strikes in Yemen have killed thousands of innocent civilians. There have been hundreds of documented criminal attacks on hospitals. The United Nations concluded that the Saudis, with U.S. military assistance, had committed grave violations.
The International Criminal Court Statute states that an individual can be convicted of war crimes if one aids or otherwise assists in the commission of the crime. The Leahy Law prohibits the United States from providing military assistance to nations that violate human rights.
So how does the United States violate its own laws by offering to sell military weapons — over $115 billion worth since 2009 — to Saudi Arabia?
Partly because, in 2009, the Saudis contributed $10 million to the Clinton Foundation. In 2011, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton oversaw a $29 billion sale of advanced fighter jets to the Saudis, a top priority for Clinton. Before the deal was clinched, Boeing, manufacturer of one of the fighter jets the Saudis sought, contributed $900,000 to the Clinton Foundation.
Edited by dronestar, : expanded clarity "U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Theodoric, posted 10-16-2016 10:09 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 258 of 892 (793704)
11-04-2016 3:59 PM


This is what a Hillary Presidency looks like . . .
This erroneous image is what a Hillary Presidency looks like from an Iraqi viewpoint. But truthfully, in actuality, you would have to first multiply the innocent victims by about 200,000:
IMHO, a human being with intelligence or any humanity whatsoever could never vote for Trump or Hillary.

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 259 of 892 (793705)
11-04-2016 4:10 PM


Interesting tidbit . . .
Here's an interesting tidbit, "collateral damage" is a term that can also mean "DEAD CHILDREN."
Really!
However, the term "collateral damage" usually seems to be used when amerikan forces murder dark-skinned Middle Eastern peoples.
For some reason, I can imagine we amerikans will hear that term an awful lot in the next four years.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 260 of 892 (793706)
11-04-2016 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by NoNukes
11-04-2016 9:53 AM


Re: because ... hacking
Except for the huge number of folks who don't.
There is also some deliberate deck stacking. In North Carolina, gun permits count as voter IDs, but student IDs even from the state universities do not. Pretty clear example of targeting some folks for voting right extinction. Very seldom are the ID laws just about ID. In North Carolina the changes involved curtailing early voting, eliminating registration of high school students at their schools, cancelling voter locations on college campuses, etc.
Exactly, I've posted this on Facebook several times:
quote:
The reason that we KNOW photo ID laws are not about double voting voter fraud, but about restricting votes is because:
(1) there is no process to provide valid photo ID's at the polling stations at no cost to voters if you bring sufficient documents to qualify for one (eg -- what you need at other places to get one) and
(2) the states do not budget to provide ID's for existing registered voters and do not take any responsibility for providing valid ID's for people that are registered. There are no touring facilities to provide the photo ID's.
(3) there is no specified standard for the photo size or orientation, and there is no database collected of photos used.
(4) allowable photo IDs show bias, allowing NRA membership cards but not university ID cards.
(5) places (DMV etc) where you can get photo IDs are shut down in black neighborhoods.
(6) there is no program to scan photos at the polls and compare them to a digital database that can search for duplications.
This is voter suppression, pure and simple.
This means registration and re-registration drives in all states that require one ... and if we register more votes than they hoped to suppress we can make this program FAIL.
Presidential decree? My question was about whether Congress had the authority, to establish a national ID card that the states were bound to respect at election time. It is unclear that they have the power to do such a thing. But it is certainly clear that the president does not have such power.
We need to find a way to effect voter rights.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by NoNukes, posted 11-04-2016 9:53 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 261 of 892 (793709)
11-04-2016 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by dronestar
11-04-2016 3:40 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Nope

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by dronestar, posted 11-04-2016 3:40 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(5)
Message 262 of 892 (793711)
11-04-2016 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by dronestar
11-04-2016 3:40 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
You should have provided your link just once instead of seven times, because now you'll have to fix it in seven places. You evidently cut-n-pasted the abbreviated link text from your old message, instead of the link itself. The correct link: On Hillary Clinton, Sexism, and U.S. Foreign Policy
When you first posted that Hillary Clinton's opponent was Bernier Sanders, a credible potential President, but now it's Donald Trump, who has no experience at statecraft and is temperamentally unfit for office. We know what Trump would be like as President because we've already seen it on the campaign trail.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by dronestar, posted 11-04-2016 3:40 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by jar, posted 11-04-2016 7:08 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 287 by dronestar, posted 11-07-2016 10:10 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(4)
Message 263 of 892 (793715)
11-04-2016 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Percy
11-04-2016 6:00 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Percy writes:
We know what Trump would be like as President because we've already seen it on the campaign trail.
And also in business dealings and on reality TV and on Twitter and ...
Trump is simply a joke and not even a funny joke.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Percy, posted 11-04-2016 6:00 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by RAZD, posted 11-04-2016 10:30 PM jar has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(6)
Message 264 of 892 (793717)
11-04-2016 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by jar
11-04-2016 7:08 PM


the making of Trump
People talk about how the GOP made the monster with their relentless Faux Noise etc, creating the base that he appeals to.
But American Capitalism made Trump what he is: the personification of it - make money by whatever means works, and screw the losers.
This is also part of his appeal. The bankruptcies don't matter because he made money and losers lost money. That's how unfettered capitalism works.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by jar, posted 11-04-2016 7:08 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by AZPaul3, posted 11-05-2016 3:53 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 265 of 892 (793718)
11-05-2016 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by RAZD
11-04-2016 10:30 PM


Re: the making of Trump
Capitalism is a strong plank in the American ideal, but the exploitative, abusive, form that today characterizes American Capitalism was dealt a stinging rebuke at the turn of the prior century. Its resurrection in today's form is a recent GOP creation with the rise of Ronald Reagan.
But that is not all there is to the GOP. The other planks to the GOP base are the racist, misogynist, homophobic, anti-American ideals that rose to prominence with the abusive religious right within the GOP.
The same America that made Bernie Sanders made Donald Trump. The difference is that the GOP base made a welcoming home for the exploitative, racist, misogynist, homophobic, anti-American Donald Trump. So, yes, the GOP found and adopted this monster made in their own image.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by RAZD, posted 11-04-2016 10:30 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by ringo, posted 11-05-2016 11:55 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 266 of 892 (793719)
11-05-2016 7:52 AM


More on voter interference
If you can't get people to vote for you, try keeping those people from voting, and when registration restrictions aren't good enough, try a little intimidation ...
quote:
Trump Camp And NV GOP Ordered To Appear In Court In Voter Intimidation Lawsuit
A federal judge Tuesday ordered representatives from the Donald Trump campaign and the Nevada Republican Party to appear at a hearing in his courtroom Wednesday afternoon in a lawsuit filed by Nevada Democrats accusing them of the engaging in voter intimidation tactics.
U.S. District Judge Richard Franklin Boulware also ordered the Trump campaign and state party to turn over any training materials they provided to "poll watchers, poll observers, exit pollsters or any other similarly tasked individuals."
At the hearing, the Trump campaign and the Nevada GOP should be prepared to respond to the motion for a temporary restraining order that the Democrats requested in the lawsuit, the judge's order said.
The Nevada Democratic Party's lawsuit was filed along with lawsuits from three other Democratic state parties against their GOP counterparts and the Trump campaign in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Arizona. They allege that the Trump campaign and the state Republican parties have violated the Voting Rights Act and the Ku Klux Klan Act, with an approach to elections monitoring that Democrats described as "vigilante voter intimidation." ...
quote:
Judge Issues Restraining Order Against Trump Campaign to Prevent Voter Intimidation
In a surprise ruling, a US district judge in Ohio issued a restraining order against Donald Trump's campaign to prevent anyone working on the campaign from harassing and intimidating voters at the polls on Tuesday.
The order came after a two-hour hearing in which the judge pressed Trump's lawyer to justify the candidate's inflammatory rhetoric about voter fraud. It also applies to close Trump adviser Roger Stone, who has organized poll-watching activities, and the "officers, agents, servants, and employees" of Trump and Stone.
Voter fraud has been a popular theme among Republicans this year, from Trump to state Republican leaders who cite fraud as a reason to make it more difficult to vote. But as Friday's ruling shows, it's a lot easier to warn about fraud on the campaign trail than in front of a judge.
The restraining order is the result of a lawsuit filed by the Ohio Democratic Party against Trump, Stone, and the Ohio Republican Party. The suit asked the court to declare it illegal to intimidate voters at the polls. Similar suits have been filed in Arizona, Nevada, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and Michigan. ... The complaint cited provisions of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and the Ku Klux Klan Act of 1871 that prohibit voter intimidation.
The GOP has been talking about this for years, through talking heads and other right wing "sources" of misinformation. Once again we see Trump playing to the base that believes the propaganda.
Intimidation is election fraud.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 267 of 892 (793724)
11-05-2016 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by AZPaul3
11-05-2016 3:53 AM


Re: the making of Trump
AZPaul3 writes:
The same America that made Bernie Sanders made Donald Trump. The difference is that the GOP base made a welcoming home for the exploitative, racist, misogynist, homophobic, anti-American Donald Trump.
And Bernie Sanders made a welcoming home for all the pseudo-lefties who are too holier-than-thou to vote for Hillary Clinton.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by AZPaul3, posted 11-05-2016 3:53 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


(4)
Message 268 of 892 (793725)
11-05-2016 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by frako
10-30-2016 7:57 AM


Re: The Burning of the Democracy
Acually, HIllary is that much better. While not what I would consider the best choice, she is competent. The right wing has been lying about her since 1992. People remember the accusation, but can't remember when the investigation turns up no evidence to support the accusation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by frako, posted 10-30-2016 7:57 AM frako has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Percy, posted 11-05-2016 5:13 PM ramoss has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 269 of 892 (793728)
11-05-2016 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by ramoss
11-05-2016 4:45 PM


Re: The Burning of the Democracy
ramoss writes:
Acually, HIllary is that much better. While not what I would consider the best choice, she is competent.
Exactly. Probably not many people's first choice, but she sure beats the alternative.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by ramoss, posted 11-05-2016 4:45 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by ramoss, posted 11-05-2016 5:34 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 274 by anglagard, posted 11-06-2016 1:59 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 270 of 892 (793731)
11-05-2016 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Percy
11-05-2016 5:13 PM


Re: The Burning of the Democracy
SHe was about my third or 4th choice. She beat any of the republican alternatives that actually attempted to run this year. And, except for one, all of those were infinitely preferable to the cheeto that eventually got the nomination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Percy, posted 11-05-2016 5:13 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024