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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 478 of 1163 (787767)
07-21-2016 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by ICANT
07-21-2016 2:57 PM


Re: So, oh well, we're still off topic.
Fossils of single-celled organisms were found at 4.3 miles as well as water.
So no grass and trees then?
So how did that water and fossils get there?
All I can find on the Internet are uninformative gee-whiz type articles. It's altogether possible that the hard data was all published in Russian. Sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by ICANT, posted 07-21-2016 2:57 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 481 of 1163 (787796)
07-21-2016 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 480 by Faith
07-21-2016 9:15 PM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
You still have to explain how this could be the case. Was the landscape there at one time but it all became sedimentary rock?
The bits of it that were sediment became sedimentary rock.
And if so how did that happen?
It got gradually covered over with more sediment and underwent compaction, compression, and heating.
And no dinosaurs survived?
Yes they did.
Where did they go when their environment got squashed under all that sediment?
They went on living on top of the new sediment. It's not like all the overlying sediment suddenly dropped out of the sky one day. (OK, except volcanic ash, which does fall from the sky and which might kill off the fauna in a given area, which would then be recolonized from adjacent areas.)

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 487 of 1163 (787806)
07-22-2016 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 483 by Faith
07-22-2016 2:57 AM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
I intended it to be a brontosaurus in its own "time period" poking its head out from between the strata, unhappy because there is nothing to sustain life in the strata.
Well, quite. A brontosaurus can't live underground any more than you can. Especially since (obviously) the brontosaurus would have to die before being buried.
And your point is ... ?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 505 of 1163 (787849)
07-22-2016 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Faith
07-22-2016 1:23 PM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
That isn't my argument at the moment, although it represents my viewpoint, yes. But at the moment I'm focused on the strata of the Geo Column each as forming the surface of the earth in its own time period, and since their fossil contents are supposed to have lived in that time period on the very site where they are buried, a whole landscape, or ecology perhaps, is supposed to have existed on that spot and yet all that actually exists on that spot is the sedimentary layer itself. You have to imagine there having been a landscape there originally in which the fossil creatures lived, but that requires imagining a very complex scenario in which such a landscape ends up as a sedimentary rock, EVERY landscape of EVERY time period ends up as a sedimentary rock. This isn't particularly a problem for marine creatures since their habitat is in the water and doesn't form a landscape on the surface, but when we get to the terrestrial creatures their supposed environment becomes something more akin to the surface of the earth we are living on. For every sedimentary deposit that contains terrestrial fossils we have to conjure this supposed environment and then suppose it was eventually all reduced to a flat sedimentary rock. The rocks as observed in the strata, where they haven't been tectonically deformed, are pretty flat, often with pretty tight contacts between them, and yet we are to imagine that there was once a whole landscape on their surface somewhat like the landscape on the surface now? And that makes sense to you? That makes sense to Geologists?
Yes, Faith, the idea that "pretty flat" sheets of sediment "with pretty tight contacts between them", end up as "pretty flat" strata of sedimentary rocks "with pretty tight contacts between them" makes perfect sense to us and to geologists.
What we cannot grasp is why you find such a thing bizarre and outr.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 506 of 1163 (787850)
07-22-2016 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Faith
07-22-2016 1:23 PM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
I have NO idea what a "fossil landscape" could possibly be but this scenario seems reasonable to you? Era after era landscapes form and get buried by sediments? Which harden into rock with flat surfaces on top of which eventually another landscape forms and gets buried and so on and so forth? This IS what Geology seems to be saying, which is such a monumental absurdity it is extremely hard to account for how you all fail to see it.
No. Era after era, sediments are deposited in depositional environments. At any given point the sedimentary layer on top is the landscape. The sediments lower down eventually lithify. As long as this process keeps going, anything which once was the landscape of a depositional environment will one day be rock.
Where is the absurdity?

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 Message 495 by Faith, posted 07-22-2016 1:23 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by edge, posted 07-22-2016 5:28 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 508 of 1163 (787854)
07-22-2016 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by edge
07-22-2016 5:28 PM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
Well I was talking about terrestrial deposition without unconformities. Let's start with the easy stuff. (OK, it's all childishly easy, but apparently not if you're Faith.)

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 526 of 1163 (788029)
07-25-2016 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 520 by Faith
07-24-2016 2:38 PM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
You can't get a stratum, a thick flat rock that extends over a huge area, from a lake.
There is nothing in the definition of a stratum that says it has to cover a huge area. (Also, some lakes do cover a huge area.)
And we do in fact find lake-sized strata in the geological record.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 536 of 1163 (788128)
07-26-2016 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 529 by Faith
07-26-2016 4:45 AM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
THE strata is of course a different thing from strata formed in a peanut butter jar.
That's true. For one thing the strata produced by the PB jar experiment are hydraulically sorted.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 544 of 1163 (788200)
07-27-2016 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by New Cat's Eye
07-26-2016 2:57 PM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
What is refered to as The Geological Column is an artifact of summing all of the individual geological columns into one master geological column, but its not a real thing that exists in the planet rather it is a concept of what all of the stratum together would look like.
What he said. (Except strata not stratum.)

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 586 of 1163 (793737)
11-05-2016 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 4:50 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Even as a creationist, I agree with you that there would be fossils before the flood. I place the flood at the PT boundary which is where the flooding evidence exists. All fossils before the PT boundary are pre-flood fossils.
Why do the pre-flood fossils look so different to organisms living today, when they were in fact all created in the same week and all lived together at the same time?
For example, why do we have fossils of pre-flood trilobites but not pre-flood lobsters? Fossils of tabulate corals from before the flood, but not pre-flood scleractinian corals? Fossils of pre-flood gorgonopsians and diadectomorphs but never a pre-flood crocodile or lion --- or dinosaur, if it comes to that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 4:50 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:32 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 592 of 1163 (793745)
11-05-2016 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:32 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Good point. But there are pre-flood archosaurs. Precursor to dinosaurs and modern crocodiles.
I know that basal archosaurs are precursors to dinosaurs and crocodiles, but if you are going to admit that into your explanatory scheme then ... welcome to our side. We accept your surrender.
But Creationism does predict that increasingly modern kinds will be found fossilised in ancient strata ...
On what basis does it predict this?
In addition our modern terrestrial environment was not a prevalent ecosystem in pre-flood times. ie generally the more prevalent terrestrial conditions before the PT boundary were of a cold wet, low lying nature. These low-lying regions were susceptible to marine transgressions, not the place for burgeoning human settlements. One would expect human settlements to have being in the less vulnerable regions with eco-systems similar to ones where mammals currently thrive ie where angiosperms are a prevalent part of the eco-system.
I didn't mention human settlements. I did mention lobsters and trilobites, were all the lobsters living on mountains before the Flood?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:32 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 7:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 594 of 1163 (793747)
11-05-2016 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:54 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
I wont even bother posting the links here ...
Well, I'm convinced.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 618 of 1163 (793771)
11-05-2016 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 599 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 7:17 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Its not surrender, its obvious that kinds can adapt rapidly by changing allele frequencies.
What exactly are you suggesting? Do you propose that all the dinosaurs evolved from some late-Permian archosaur that sailed with Noah --- that they had enough time to evolve all that diversity and then go extinct in just a few thousand years?
And ... no-one noticed?
You say: "But Creationism does predict that increasingly modern kinds will be found fossilized in ancient strata ."
I said no such thing.
Creationism claims that creatures are relatively unchanged since creation.
Apart from (for example) the evolution of the Ornithopoda, Thyreophora, Marginocephalia, Sauropodomorpha and Theropoda.
Regarding lobsters, it's possible that the prevailing environment during the Cambrian was too sulfuric or too anoxic for them.
Do you have a shred of evidence for that? And they are just one instance of a general pattern, though. Are you going to make piecemeal excuses for everything that looks exactly like scientists are right?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 7:17 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 5:50 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 619 of 1163 (793772)
11-05-2016 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 7:36 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Then there is a recent discovery of early eocene mammals in Turkey.
You can find early Eocene mammals all over the place.
we found an ancient community of fossil mammals that is utterly unique for two reasons. First, many of the fossil species are completely unlike any other fossil mammals we’ve ever seen.
And so they're unlikely to have produced all the mammal species we do see by some magical process of creationist hypersuperduperevolution.

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 654 of 1163 (793822)
11-06-2016 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 651 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 9:58 AM


Re: Pre-flood mammals
Like I explained in my previous post, pre-flood mammals would be found in a rare pre-flood environment conducive to mammals. One would look in the same place one finds pre-flood angiosperm fossils. ie Siberia.
And one would not find any.
Obviously mammals would not be found in those wet flood vulnerable areas suited to amphibians.
And nor apparently would crocodiles, because jeez, whoever heard of a crocodile living in a swamp?
The theory of evolution is missing a lot more fossils than just mammals. You are missing nearly EVERY fossil. The ones found are only a tiny tip of the iceberg of fossils that should exist because you should be able to show a transition for EVERY creature that exists.
Only if every species had been (a) fossilized and (b) discovered by us by 2016.
Yet you just have the occasional sequence ..... and sometimes dubious sequences. So the lack of mammal fossils in creationism is nothing compared to the evolutionary lack.
Well, given that we have lots of intermediate forms and that you have no Paleozoic mammals ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 651 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 9:58 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 10:25 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
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