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Author | Topic: The Church And Sexual Expression | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There has been an ages old debate among people who call themselves Christian regarding the normalcy of same gender attraction and what it means for the church today. Recently I saw a video by a man whom resonated with my inner spirit.
Update Your Browser | Facebook This Pastor emphasizes the need for the church to recognize the unique fit of each type of individual in society and in life. His basic belief is that there are ways for homosexuals to express themselves in the church and in society at large that Christianity has rejected, repressed, and villified. Check out the video and give me your comments. Faith & Belief, or perhaps social issues.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Thread copied here from the The Church And Sexual Expression thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: His basic belief is that there are ways for homosexuals to express themselves in the church and in society at large that Christianity has rejected, repressed, and villified. Why on earth you think anyone needs to watch a video to know that that's obviously true is beyond me. It just highlights how fucked up religious 'thinking' is. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Churches are free to make any stupid rules for their members that they want, and that the members will accept.
What churches and religions are NOT free to do is try to impose their rules on non-members.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
First of all, neither one of you has gotten the basic point of the video.
There is no need to express attraction through sexual expression and, even if it can be labeled as sexual, the form of the expression can involve intimacy that need not culminate in sexual release. There is no biological need to do so. A hug can carry far more emotional weight. Women have taught us this for years. Sometimes they just want to be held and cuddled---as does everyone, essentially. My point is not to villify what our society terms as gay. The legal and social freedoms of human individuals has now extended to include all sexual preferences, and I'm not arguing against the legal rights. What I am suggesting is what the Pastor has suggested in this video--that there is a different role for same gender attraction than merely being encouraged to biologically "love" your spouse...and if a spouse of the same gender is the only solution. It is my contention that same gender attraction can be used as a tool for a deeper love---such as Jesus has and had, that can be used to nurture the church as a group---and that traditional religion has been shooting itself in the foot for not recognizing the role that can be played by such individuals.
What churches and religions are NOT free to do is try to impose their rules on non-members. And no one has suggested this. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Religions and churches have every right to shoot themselves in the foot although I will admit that is one bizarre example of a foot fetish.
AbE: Since determining who or what makes someone a spouse is a secular contractual issue it really is irrelevant what any church or religion thinks on the matter. Edited by jar, : see AbE:
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Why on earth you think anyone needs to watch a video to know that that's obviously true is beyond me. It just highlights how fucked up religious 'thinking' is. Because society has not grown up enough to understand the difference between attraction, the purpose of the attraction, and the ways that the attraction can be expressed. Perhaps you can make an argument that it is not up to the church to define purpose and that the individual can and should be free to define it for themseves...but my argument is that society does not encourage people to get deeper with their emotions. Our motto in society is simply If it feels good, do it. Why do you think we have so many divorces? It is because heterosexuals are taught that man is an animal and in nature, a male can and does often have several different partners. Again, my basic argument is that sexual expression and compatibility should be treated deeper than is done. My critics will only point out that churches have no right to determine what should even means. My counterargument is that society needs to challenge itself to get deeper than mere biological urges and that there is a unique purpose for such urges.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Agreed in that it is a secular issue, but one could argue that everything is a secular issue. My challenge is for the club to take a stand that potential members might think about. Since determining who or what makes someone a spouse is a secular contractual issue it really is irrelevant what any church or religion thinks on the matter. Lets ask this: What is the purpose for a gay union? Does your club have any guidelines?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Same sex marriage is legal in the US.
Churches can only sanctify or bless marriages, they have no authority beyond what is delegated by the State to perform marriages and then only after the State has first sanctioned the marriage. I have no idea what a gay union is. Is it like the IDP/HHW? Is there a membership charge.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
quote: Says who? Everyone on the planet knows and understands this.
quote: You can bet your arse I can
quote: I hope you're speaking for yourself here - it's not something I recognise. We have so many divorces because people change over time and they now can.
quote: Phat, you do a lot of twaddle at times...
quote: Yeh.
quote: I have no idea what you're talking about. You seem to be involved in some sort of personal revelation.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I think you have that backwards. Our society does encourage a lot of voodoo nonsense about commitment and what a "committed relationship" should be. The problem isn't that there isn't enough of that; the problem is that it isn't realistic. ...but my argument is that society does not encourage people to get deeper with their emotions. The biological urges are real. The "deeper meaning" that people "should" have often is not.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Everyone on the planet knows and understands this. I don't think so. If everyone on the planet knew the meaning of love and of relationships and understood it fully, there would be no wars. Of course where you and I differ and will argue is that you think that people are born with no character defects and what we do and how we behave is essentially normal....whereas I believe that people are not born without flaws and that we are expected to work them out.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Our society does encourage a lot of voodoo nonsense about commitment and what a "committed relationship" should be. The problem isn't that there isn't enough of that; the problem is that it isn't realistic. Are you suggesting that humans should not strive for deeper insight? That the way we are is the way we will be? No wonder you dont want any sort of authority in your life apart from your own inner awareness. My argument is that you and all of us collectively---are not fully healthy just the way we are. To support my argument I present the growing number of addictions,compulsions,licentious liaisons and overall sensuality without responsibility that the human animal is plagued with.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
quote: That is one enormous non-sequiter.
quote: It's probably best to stick to what you believe. Tell me, what flaws are newborn babies born with?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Because society has not grown up enough to understand the difference between attraction, the purpose of the attraction, and the ways that the attraction can be expressed. Or perhaps there exist more than one type of attraction. I feel no 'gender attraction' to males that would be confused in anyway with a desire to have sex with them. I doubt that such confusion is the least bit true. I also doubt that folks with homosexual attractions are mistaking their feelings for just wanting to play a checkers or football with each other.
My counterargument is that society needs to challenge itself to get deeper than mere biological urges and that there is a unique purpose for such urges Thanks for sharing. Do you have biological urges towards men that you really want to do some other type of bonding with? I would consider such a thing very unusual. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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