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Author Topic:   The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 267 (793721)
11-05-2016 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by LamarkNewAge
11-04-2016 6:39 PM


Re: Unknown Gods, works, and eternal security
While I respect your effort at presenting a cohesive argument, as well as applauding your increasingly thorough posts, I have never been one to study scripture in light of what others comment regarding it.
To me, scripture speaks to my heart and is alive, giving me ample material to write down rather than comments from others who--though perhaps scholars---were less in touch with the living God found in the living word than the simple faith of an unlearned child.
The issue is circumcision (and also animal sacrifices though it isn't explicitly mentioned) essentially.
Why are we going off topic and discussing circumcision?
As you yourself emphasize...knowledge (and quotes from many scholars) puffs the issue up while love (of the scripture itself) builds up.
I respect Judaism until through intellectualism they substitute the God revealed in scripture and fully expressed in Jesus Christ for a god of their own vain imagination---even an educated imagination.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-04-2016 6:39 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-09-2016 1:14 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 62 of 267 (793723)
11-05-2016 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
11-03-2016 11:44 PM


Re: Works vs Grace
Phat writes:
My only question is why doesn't he accept that the messenger may well be alive and desiring communion with him?
And my question is why don't you frame every envelope that comes in the mail? How do you decide which envelopes are more important than their contents?
Phat writes:
...lets ask Jesus...
I'm asking you. What does a framed envelope on your wall add?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 11-03-2016 11:44 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 11-05-2016 6:34 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 267 (793742)
11-05-2016 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ringo
11-05-2016 11:42 AM


Re: Works vs Grace
What does a framed envelope on your wall add?
Nothing more than a framed picture of a dead saint. But we are talking about life rather than death.
Jesus is the mediator between God and humanity. Jesus lives eternally. He will never be a dead saint on the wall, nor a mere crucifix around the neck...He is the message.
And I know my doggedly determined opposition. He will ask what this even means. For all of the questions he asks in his life, he never seemed to accept this one answer. So let me spell it out plainly. We can never be the mediator simply by trying to do our best. We can feed people, build them shelter, clothe them and comfort them to a limited degree.
But you know the drill. I wont convince you that the messenger is the message, and you wont convince me that feeding a hungry guy is enough.
Thankfully I actually do the things you suggest.
We feed, clothe, and encourage a poor community. We never force our messenger on anyone but they always ask us about our message.
And if you politely declined, we would rake your leaves and feed you anyway.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 11-05-2016 11:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 11-06-2016 1:11 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 64 of 267 (793851)
11-06-2016 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
11-05-2016 6:34 PM


Re: Works vs Grace
Phat writes:
But we are talking about life rather than death.
We're talking about neither. We're talking about putting the container before the contents.
Phat writes:
Jesus is the mediator between God and humanity. Jesus lives eternally. He will never be a dead saint on the wall, nor a mere crucifix around the neck...He is the message.
That's just meaningless gibberish.
The message is, "Love God and love thy neighbour as thyself." How can you love God except by loving your neighbour?
But that isn't even the message that Jesus brought. We already had that message. Paul said so.
The message that Jesus brought was, "Don't let religion get in the way of what you already know. You know it's right to help people so don't let arbitrary rules like the Sabbath get in the way of that." Jesus brought that message to the Jews and Paul extended it to the Gentiles.
You're doing exactly the opposite.
Phat writes:
... you wont convince me that feeding a hungry guy is enough.
Will Matthew 25 convince you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 11-05-2016 6:34 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 11-07-2016 12:10 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 267 (793957)
11-07-2016 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ringo
11-06-2016 1:11 PM


Re: Works vs Grace
The message that Jesus brought was, "Don't let religion get in the way of what you already know. You know it's right to help people so don't let arbitrary rules like the Sabbath get in the way of that." Jesus brought that message to the Jews and Paul extended it to the Gentiles.
I see your point. Where we differ, however, is that you think humans are already equipped with all they need to go out and do good works...thus proving their faith. John 1 affirms that the Word is Jesus. The container is itself the contents. But then again, im beating a dead horse.
You can do this all day!
You never have liked religion and you see no need for a savior...aside from one who reminds you to go feed people.
Perhaps Paul was trying to keep people under the umbrella of organized religion...though I see his words emphasizing the interaction of himself and the living Christ. Pauls message was clear in that we need a savior.
Your message is more like Nikes...Just Do It
as for matthew 25, I'm wise enough to understand that one scripture does not a Bible make. Yes, it was Jesus talking. Yes, it has a valid charge.
But why not look at everything Jesus said? And dont forget John and blame a redactor.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 11-06-2016 1:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 11-07-2016 12:26 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 66 of 267 (793958)
11-07-2016 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
11-07-2016 12:10 PM


Re: Works vs Grace
Phat writes:
Where we differ, however, is that you think humans are already equipped with all they need to go out and do good works...thus proving their faith.
Genesis agrees that we inherited the knowledge of good and evil from Adam and Eve. And Paul agrees that the Gentiles follow the law instinctively.
Phat writes:
John 1 affirms that the Word is Jesus.
That's just mumbo-jumbo.
Phat writes:
You never have liked religion and you see no need for a savior...
That still isn't true, no matter how many times you tell yourself it is. In fact, I would love to be able to believe in a sky-daddy who would make everything better. It just isn't true.
Phat writes:
...aside from one who reminds you to go feed people.
I don't need to be reminded. Ask Paul.
Phat writes:
as for matthew 25, I'm wise enough to understand that one scripture does not a Bible make. Yes, it was Jesus talking. Yes, it has a valid charge.
But why not look at everything Jesus said?
That's what I'm asking you: Why do you ignore the general principle in Matthew 25 and attach yourself to a few specifics that seem to contradict it? You should be starting from the general and judging the specifics by the general, not using the specifics as an excuse to discard the general.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 11-07-2016 12:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 11-09-2016 11:25 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 67 of 267 (794066)
11-09-2016 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
11-07-2016 12:26 PM


Re: Works vs Grace
Phat writes:
John 1 affirms that the Word is Jesus.
ringo writes:
That's just mumbo-jumbo.
The messenger is the message! Who else are we gonna trust? Donald Trump?
I am curious if you think that the Gospel of John itself is mumbo jumbo, as you eloquently put it.
Just because the author is not on the Matthew 25 cheerleading squad, He does affirm the love and power of Jesus...supercharged with Godlike power.
Some of you believe that only humans can make America, Humanity, or Themselves Great Again.
Others believe that Jesus (Superman, Donald Trump,Arnold,or Thor) alone has the power.
Still others...such as myself...maintain that there is power in communion. It is on all of us.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 11-07-2016 12:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 11-09-2016 2:20 PM Phat has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


(1)
Message 68 of 267 (794073)
11-09-2016 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
11-05-2016 8:07 AM


Re: Unknown Gods, works, and eternal security
quote:
Why are we going off topic and discussing circumcision?
The law mentioned in Acts 15, Acts 21, and then in Romans and Galatians essentially refers to circumcision. That was the one issue separating a "Jewish Christian" from a "gentile" Christian.
Galatians is essentially over circumcision. The entire book.
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Galatians
While the issue of circumcision is discussed, the issue of works (such as vice lists or list of sins) always comes up - whether by Paul or James.
The 2nd chapter of the book of James is full of quotes on works. James was clearly in favor of the law in 57/58 A.D (for Jewish Christians he was in favor of the law - that is circumcision -. Gentiles only had to avoid non-kosher food and fornication to secure "salvation"). Read Acts chapter 21. Please.
Here is James chapter 2.
James 2 NRSVUE - Warning against Partiality - My - Bible Gateway
Here is Acts 21.
Acts 21 NRSVUE - Paul’s Journey to Jerusalem - When we - Bible Gateway
Now Romans 2 was actually about non-Christian gentiles and later (in the same chapter) NON-CHRISTIAN Jews. Very important to notice the subtle distinction between gentiles Christians and non-Christian gentiles.
Romans 2 NRSVUE - The Righteous Judgment of God - Bible Gateway
Here is what Paul said about gentiles who don't "have Jesus" (my quotes are of modern evangelical words and not Paul's necessarily).
quote:
Romans 2:13-16
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.
NRSV
Here is the literal NASB translation.
quote:
Romans 2:13-16
for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
NASB
Paul later said this about non-Christian Jews. (the distinction must be made here too between a Jewish Christian and non-Christian Jewish person)
quote:
Romans 2:25
For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision
NRSV
James said this to and about Paul right (about)as he was writing Romans.
quote:
Acts 21:17-26
When we arrived in Jerusalem, the brothers welcomed us warmly. 18 The next day Paul went with us to visit James; and all the elders were present. 19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard it, they praised God. Then they said to him, You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the law. 21 They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 So do what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow. 24 Join these men, go through the rite of purification with them, and pay for the shaving of their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself observe and guard the law. 25 But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having purified himself, he entered the temple with them, making public the completion of the days of purification when the sacrifice would be made for each of them.
NRSV
James clearly was in favor of a Jewish-Christian type of denomination and Galatians was about Paul's legitimate disagreement with that type of denomination. Is this issue related to "works". No but the Apostolic Council of Acts 15 clearly was about works gentiles were required to do and it was the avoidance of fornication and non-kosher food. Honest exegesis should recognize the plain reading of the text.
Here are quotes from the book of James.
quote:
James 2:14-24
Faith without Works Is Dead
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters,if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill, and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believeand shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness, and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
NRSV
There is a case to be made that everything is about works (on judgment day), when one considers that Paul himself said what he said in Romans 2. It was about non-Christians.
The unified Biblical text shows James was very big on following "the law". One who sinned had a negative work. He died before the Temple was destroyed. He passed away in 62 A.D. The Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. But he had a list of sins that went on forever. Acts 15 was about gentile Christians and their requirements from the absolute start. It didn't expire. There were vice lists that were added by Paul and James and they never ended. There were commands that again brought back non-Christian Jewish law.
quote:
James 2:8-12
You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For the one who said, You shall not commit adultery, also said, You shall not murder. Now if you do not commit adultery but if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
NRSV
The Jews said "love God and love your neighbor as yourself. THE REST IS COMMENTARY"
That part about loving your neighbor wasn't even the Old Testament. Just like not ringing an animals head off. Acts 15 actually was based on a contradiction of the Old Testament.
Here are the words of James
quote:
Acts 15:19-20
Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but we should write to them to abstain only from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from whatever has been strangled and from blood.
Notice the confused 7th Day Adventist commentary. (confused over the so-called "ceremonial" food laws and then confusion over where the heck these laws came from.
quote:
Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary
Volume 6
Acts-Ephesians
(Review And Herald Publishing Association, 1980)
p.311-312
From fornication. It may be surprising at first to find a moral rule placed along with restrictions that seem purely ceremonial. But the first item in the decree was moral also in so far as it was based on the second commandment of the Decalogue.
The commentary went on to justify the fornication ban as somehow related to gentile morays: can be considered almost a characteristic of Greco-Roman life. Idolatry and fornication sometimes were related in the pagan cults.
Back to the confused commentary
quote:
ibid.
Things strangled. Important textual evidence may be cited (cf. p. 10) for the omission of the words, and from things strangled. There is no clear prohibition in the OT against the eating of things strangled. However, the principle involved appears to be the same as that of the next prohibition, abstaining from eating blood. Animals strangled would not normally be bled, and so their flesh would not be acceptable for food(see Lev. 17:13, 14). James’s declaration may also have been based on the Mosaic restrictions against the flesh of animals that had died of themselves or that had been killed by another beast (Lev. 17:15; Deut. 14:21). Such restrictions were observed by the early church, as is testified by Tertullian (died c. A.D. 230), who, writing to pagans, declares: Blush for your vile ways before the Christians, who have not even the blood of animals at their meals of simple and natural food; who abstain from things strangled and that die a natural death, for no other reason than that they may not contract pollution, so much as from blood secreted in the viscera (Apology 9; ANF, vol. 3, p.25). Similarly, an ancient rule in the Eastern Church ordains: If any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon, or indeed any one of the sacerdotal catalogue, eats flesh with the blood of its life, or that which is torn by beasts, or which died of itself, let him be deprived; for this the law has forbidden. But if he be one of the laity, let him be suspended (Apostolic Canon 63; ANF, vol. 7, p. 504). Ancient Jewish tradition declared that when the neck of an animal was broken the blood flowed into the limbs in such a way that it could not be brought out, even with the use of salt (Talmud Hullin 113a, Soncino ed., pp. 621, 622).
From blood. The prohibition against the use of blood as food was made as soon as animal food was permitted for men (Gen. 9:4), and it was frequently reiterated in the Mosaic law (Lev. 3:17; 7:26 ; 17:10; 19:26). To eat blood was counted a sin against the Lord in the days of Saul ( 1 Sam. 14:33).
You have to find the Talmud to find the part about loving your neighbor and the (contradiction to the rings the heads of chickens in the O.T.) law against strangling or head wringing.
It's a vice.
Its a sin.
It is a work.
It was in the context of making circumcision voluntary.
The violation of mishnah-based kosher laws on food we not optional. They were enshrined in the New Testament commands.
Google
quote:
[Phat]
As you yourself emphasize...knowledge (and quotes from many scholars) puffs the issue up while love (of the scripture itself) builds up.
I respect Judaism until through intellectualism they substitute the God revealed in scripture and fully expressed in Jesus Christ for a god of their own vain imagination---even an educated imagination.
Paul said that Jews only need to follow the law. But they couldn't make exceptions. They had to follow it all.
Christians have to do the same thing according to James and Paul. Didn't Jesus say he didn't want to abolish the law? Matthew 5:17-18.
There seems to be commands to follow. Paul said that those with "knowledge" or a "conscience" were not to be offended.
quote:
1 Corinthians 8:10-13
For if others see you, who possess knowledge, eating in the temple of an idol, might they not, since their conscience is weak, be encouraged to the point of eating food sacrificed to idols? 11 So by your knowledge those weak believers for whom Christ died are destroyed. 12 But when you thus sin against members of your family, and wound their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food is a cause of their falling, I will never eat meat, so that I may not cause one of them to fall.
Another sin!
Another work for which there will be judgment.
The "entire" set of commands under grace.
Christians must follow them all.
Jews have their entire law to follow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 11-05-2016 8:07 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 11-10-2016 9:42 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 267 (794076)
11-09-2016 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
11-09-2016 11:25 AM


Re: Works vs Grace
Phat writes:
The messenger is the message!
That makes NO sense. I keep asking you, do you frame the envelope and throw away the letter? Of course you don't. That would be stupid. So why do you keep making the same senseless response?
Phat writes:
Who else are we gonna trust?
We're gonna trust the friggin' MESSAGE.
Phat writes:
I am curious if you think that the Gospel of John itself is mumbo jumbo, as you eloquently put it.
I think your interpretation is mumbo jumbo. It says, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." Your interpretation about Jesus existing from the beginning is nonsense.
Phat writes:
Some of you believe that only humans can make America, Humanity, or Themselves Great Again.
Do you read anything I write at all? I have told you time after time after time that I believe we have a responsibility to do what we can to make the world a better place. Nobody is going to do it for us.
Phat writes:
Still others...such as myself...maintain that there is power in communion.
And yet you can't demonstrate that power.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 11-09-2016 11:25 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by jar, posted 11-09-2016 2:48 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 12-26-2016 2:08 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 267 (794077)
11-09-2016 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
11-09-2016 2:20 PM


Re: Works vs Grace
ringo writes:
Phat writes:
Still others...such as myself...maintain that there is power in communion.
And yet you can't demonstrate that power.
Or the communion or even explain how such communion could be possible or how you could determine who you were "communing" with.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 11-09-2016 2:20 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 11-10-2016 9:31 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 267 (794122)
11-10-2016 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by jar
11-09-2016 2:48 PM


Re: Works vs Grace
I can demonstrate the power. You would have to spend a week with me and get to know the people I meet. Even then, you would likely try and test the belief by finding if the power and communion involves anything other than people and if my attribution is unfounded.
There is no way I can prove to you that God or Jesus is involved in the power (of changed lives) or the communion (prayer with others, fellowship, etc)
You likely are biased towards simple human interaction and have no interest in the God I market.
I really dont have any interest in the God you market either since He has no more interest in me than He does a roach in the corner of the room.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by jar, posted 11-09-2016 2:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 11-10-2016 9:48 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 74 by jar, posted 11-10-2016 9:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 267 (794123)
11-10-2016 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by LamarkNewAge
11-09-2016 1:14 PM


Re: Unknown Gods, works, and eternal security
LNA writes:
Galatians is essentially over circumcision. The entire book.
Thats quite an oversimplification. The book is about works of the flesh(Laws and Customs) versus works of the Spirit.
Gal 1:13-17 writes:
For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
Gal 2:4-5 writes:
[This matter arose] because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.
Law versus Grace. Freedom from mandatory rules
versus making one a slave to rules...such as circumcision.
The circumcision group is essentially the Law group.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-09-2016 1:14 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 267 (794126)
11-10-2016 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
11-10-2016 9:31 AM


Re: Works vs Grace
ringo writes:
Your interpretation about Jesus existing from the beginning is nonsense.
Thats the basic belief of most of Christianity. Your science mind and its insistence on evidence notwithstanding.
The whole point of the belief of Paul hinged on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Of the freedom we have to no longer be shackled to a bunch of laws and customs and that such trappings are not indicative to our standing before God.
Neither is feeding the homeless or giving out spare change to drunks with no desire to change their habits or have them set free in Christ.
And before you state your case yet again, I fully agree with your admonition to do good works as commanded.
Your standing before God---as Paul markets it---is based on your trust in Jesus Christ.
And he would market that because it is what changed him from a killing zealot to a preaching zealot.
The guy had no say when he switched sides. It was done to him and for him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 11-10-2016 9:31 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 11-10-2016 11:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 74 of 267 (794128)
11-10-2016 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
11-10-2016 9:31 AM


Re: Works vs Grace
Phat writes:
I can demonstrate the power. You would have to spend a week with me and get to know the people I meet. Even then, you would likely try and test the belief by finding if the power and communion involves anything other than people and if my attribution is unfounded.
Of course I would test it and in addition, how would meeting you and the people you know prove anything?
Phat writes:
There is no way I can prove to you that God or Jesus is involved in the power (of changed lives) or the communion (prayer with others, fellowship, etc)
But I have never asked for proof only an explanation of how such communion is even possible and how you could test to know who you are communing with?
Phat writes:
You likely are biased towards simple human interaction and have no interest in the God I market.
I really dont have any interest in the God you market either since He has no more interest in me than He does a roach in the corner of the room.
Yet I do not market any God or ever ask anyone to believe or even consider any God. What I try to talk about is doing and assuming responsibility and not waiting for someone else to do it.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 11-10-2016 9:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 75 of 267 (794138)
11-10-2016 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
11-10-2016 9:48 AM


Re: Works vs Grace
Phat writes:
[qs-ringo]Your interpretation about Jesus existing from the beginning is nonsense.[/ringo]
Thats the basic belief of most of Christianity. Your science mind and its insistence on evidence notwithstanding.
It's nonsense, your belief and the belief of any number of Christians notwithstanding. If there was any sense to it, it wouldn't have to be a belief.
Phat writes:
The whole point of the belief of Paul hinged on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Of the freedom we have to no longer be shackled to a bunch of laws and customs and that such trappings are not indicative to our standing before God.
And yet Christians are shackled to the biggest law of all and the biggest penalty of all, the need to believe versus eternal punishment.
Phat writes:
Your standing before God---as Paul markets it---is based on your trust in Jesus Christ.
No it isn't. Matthew 25. Your standing before God is based on how you treat the least of His brethren. How you treat them MAY be based on your faith in Jesus or it may not be. Paul agreed that faith without works is dead. If you don't do the works, you don't have the faith; you're just spouting, "Lord! Lord!" in vain. The works are the criteria on which you are judged. The faith is only ONE way to get the works done.
Phat writes:
The guy had no say when he switched sides. It was done to him and for him.
That's another empty belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 11-10-2016 9:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 11-10-2016 11:26 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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