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Author | Topic: The God That Paul Marketed Over Time. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
While I respect your effort at presenting a cohesive argument, as well as applauding your increasingly thorough posts, I have never been one to study scripture in light of what others comment regarding it.
To me, scripture speaks to my heart and is alive, giving me ample material to write down rather than comments from others who--though perhaps scholars---were less in touch with the living God found in the living word than the simple faith of an unlearned child.
The issue is circumcision (and also animal sacrifices though it isn't explicitly mentioned) essentially. Why are we going off topic and discussing circumcision? As you yourself emphasize...knowledge (and quotes from many scholars) puffs the issue up while love (of the scripture itself) builds up. I respect Judaism until through intellectualism they substitute the God revealed in scripture and fully expressed in Jesus Christ for a god of their own vain imagination---even an educated imagination.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And my question is why don't you frame every envelope that comes in the mail? How do you decide which envelopes are more important than their contents?
My only question is why doesn't he accept that the messenger may well be alive and desiring communion with him? Phat writes:
I'm asking you. What does a framed envelope on your wall add?
...lets ask Jesus...
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
What does a framed envelope on your wall add? Nothing more than a framed picture of a dead saint. But we are talking about life rather than death. Jesus is the mediator between God and humanity. Jesus lives eternally. He will never be a dead saint on the wall, nor a mere crucifix around the neck...He is the message. And I know my doggedly determined opposition. He will ask what this even means. For all of the questions he asks in his life, he never seemed to accept this one answer. So let me spell it out plainly. We can never be the mediator simply by trying to do our best. We can feed people, build them shelter, clothe them and comfort them to a limited degree. But you know the drill. I wont convince you that the messenger is the message, and you wont convince me that feeding a hungry guy is enough. Thankfully I actually do the things you suggest. We feed, clothe, and encourage a poor community. We never force our messenger on anyone but they always ask us about our message. And if you politely declined, we would rake your leaves and feed you anyway.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
We're talking about neither. We're talking about putting the container before the contents.
But we are talking about life rather than death. Phat writes:
That's just meaningless gibberish. Jesus is the mediator between God and humanity. Jesus lives eternally. He will never be a dead saint on the wall, nor a mere crucifix around the neck...He is the message. The message is, "Love God and love thy neighbour as thyself." How can you love God except by loving your neighbour? But that isn't even the message that Jesus brought. We already had that message. Paul said so. The message that Jesus brought was, "Don't let religion get in the way of what you already know. You know it's right to help people so don't let arbitrary rules like the Sabbath get in the way of that." Jesus brought that message to the Jews and Paul extended it to the Gentiles. You're doing exactly the opposite.
Phat writes:
Will Matthew 25 convince you?
... you wont convince me that feeding a hungry guy is enough.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The message that Jesus brought was, "Don't let religion get in the way of what you already know. You know it's right to help people so don't let arbitrary rules like the Sabbath get in the way of that." Jesus brought that message to the Jews and Paul extended it to the Gentiles. I see your point. Where we differ, however, is that you think humans are already equipped with all they need to go out and do good works...thus proving their faith. John 1 affirms that the Word is Jesus. The container is itself the contents. But then again, im beating a dead horse. You can do this all day! You never have liked religion and you see no need for a savior...aside from one who reminds you to go feed people. Perhaps Paul was trying to keep people under the umbrella of organized religion...though I see his words emphasizing the interaction of himself and the living Christ. Pauls message was clear in that we need a savior. Your message is more like Nikes...Just Do It as for matthew 25, I'm wise enough to understand that one scripture does not a Bible make. Yes, it was Jesus talking. Yes, it has a valid charge. But why not look at everything Jesus said? And dont forget John and blame a redactor. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Genesis agrees that we inherited the knowledge of good and evil from Adam and Eve. And Paul agrees that the Gentiles follow the law instinctively.
Where we differ, however, is that you think humans are already equipped with all they need to go out and do good works...thus proving their faith. Phat writes:
That's just mumbo-jumbo.
John 1 affirms that the Word is Jesus. Phat writes:
That still isn't true, no matter how many times you tell yourself it is. In fact, I would love to be able to believe in a sky-daddy who would make everything better. It just isn't true.
You never have liked religion and you see no need for a savior... Phat writes:
I don't need to be reminded. Ask Paul.
...aside from one who reminds you to go feed people. Phat writes:
That's what I'm asking you: Why do you ignore the general principle in Matthew 25 and attach yourself to a few specifics that seem to contradict it? You should be starting from the general and judging the specifics by the general, not using the specifics as an excuse to discard the general.
as for matthew 25, I'm wise enough to understand that one scripture does not a Bible make. Yes, it was Jesus talking. Yes, it has a valid charge. But why not look at everything Jesus said?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes: John 1 affirms that the Word is Jesus. ringo writes: That's just mumbo-jumbo. The messenger is the message! Who else are we gonna trust? Donald Trump? I am curious if you think that the Gospel of John itself is mumbo jumbo, as you eloquently put it. Just because the author is not on the Matthew 25 cheerleading squad, He does affirm the love and power of Jesus...supercharged with Godlike power. Some of you believe that only humans can make America, Humanity, or Themselves Great Again. Others believe that Jesus (Superman, Donald Trump,Arnold,or Thor) alone has the power. Still others...such as myself...maintain that there is power in communion. It is on all of us.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 738 days) Posts: 2236 Joined:
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quote: The law mentioned in Acts 15, Acts 21, and then in Romans and Galatians essentially refers to circumcision. That was the one issue separating a "Jewish Christian" from a "gentile" Christian. Galatians is essentially over circumcision. The entire book. BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Galatians While the issue of circumcision is discussed, the issue of works (such as vice lists or list of sins) always comes up - whether by Paul or James. The 2nd chapter of the book of James is full of quotes on works. James was clearly in favor of the law in 57/58 A.D (for Jewish Christians he was in favor of the law - that is circumcision -. Gentiles only had to avoid non-kosher food and fornication to secure "salvation"). Read Acts chapter 21. Please. Here is James chapter 2. James 2 NRSVUE - Warning against Partiality - My - Bible Gateway Here is Acts 21. Acts 21 NRSVUE - Paul’s Journey to Jerusalem - When we - Bible Gateway Now Romans 2 was actually about non-Christian gentiles and later (in the same chapter) NON-CHRISTIAN Jews. Very important to notice the subtle distinction between gentiles Christians and non-Christian gentiles. Romans 2 NRSVUE - The Righteous Judgment of God - Bible Gateway Here is what Paul said about gentiles who don't "have Jesus" (my quotes are of modern evangelical words and not Paul's necessarily).
quote: Here is the literal NASB translation.
quote: Paul later said this about non-Christian Jews. (the distinction must be made here too between a Jewish Christian and non-Christian Jewish person)
quote: James said this to and about Paul right (about)as he was writing Romans.
quote: James clearly was in favor of a Jewish-Christian type of denomination and Galatians was about Paul's legitimate disagreement with that type of denomination. Is this issue related to "works". No but the Apostolic Council of Acts 15 clearly was about works gentiles were required to do and it was the avoidance of fornication and non-kosher food. Honest exegesis should recognize the plain reading of the text. Here are quotes from the book of James.
quote: There is a case to be made that everything is about works (on judgment day), when one considers that Paul himself said what he said in Romans 2. It was about non-Christians. The unified Biblical text shows James was very big on following "the law". One who sinned had a negative work. He died before the Temple was destroyed. He passed away in 62 A.D. The Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. But he had a list of sins that went on forever. Acts 15 was about gentile Christians and their requirements from the absolute start. It didn't expire. There were vice lists that were added by Paul and James and they never ended. There were commands that again brought back non-Christian Jewish law.
quote: The Jews said "love God and love your neighbor as yourself. THE REST IS COMMENTARY" That part about loving your neighbor wasn't even the Old Testament. Just like not ringing an animals head off. Acts 15 actually was based on a contradiction of the Old Testament. Here are the words of James
quote: Notice the confused 7th Day Adventist commentary. (confused over the so-called "ceremonial" food laws and then confusion over where the heck these laws came from.
quote: The commentary went on to justify the fornication ban as somehow related to gentile morays: can be considered almost a characteristic of Greco-Roman life. Idolatry and fornication sometimes were related in the pagan cults. Back to the confused commentary
quote: You have to find the Talmud to find the part about loving your neighbor and the (contradiction to the rings the heads of chickens in the O.T.) law against strangling or head wringing. It's a vice. Its a sin. It is a work. It was in the context of making circumcision voluntary. The violation of mishnah-based kosher laws on food we not optional. They were enshrined in the New Testament commands. Google
quote: Paul said that Jews only need to follow the law. But they couldn't make exceptions. They had to follow it all. Christians have to do the same thing according to James and Paul. Didn't Jesus say he didn't want to abolish the law? Matthew 5:17-18. There seems to be commands to follow. Paul said that those with "knowledge" or a "conscience" were not to be offended.
quote: Another sin! Another work for which there will be judgment. The "entire" set of commands under grace. Christians must follow them all. Jews have their entire law to follow.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That makes NO sense. I keep asking you, do you frame the envelope and throw away the letter? Of course you don't. That would be stupid. So why do you keep making the same senseless response?
The messenger is the message! Phat writes:
We're gonna trust the friggin' MESSAGE.
Who else are we gonna trust? Phat writes:
I think your interpretation is mumbo jumbo. It says, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." Your interpretation about Jesus existing from the beginning is nonsense.
I am curious if you think that the Gospel of John itself is mumbo jumbo, as you eloquently put it. Phat writes:
Do you read anything I write at all? I have told you time after time after time that I believe we have a responsibility to do what we can to make the world a better place. Nobody is going to do it for us.
Some of you believe that only humans can make America, Humanity, or Themselves Great Again. Phat writes:
And yet you can't demonstrate that power.
Still others...such as myself...maintain that there is power in communion.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
ringo writes: Phat writes:
And yet you can't demonstrate that power. Still others...such as myself...maintain that there is power in communion. Or the communion or even explain how such communion could be possible or how you could determine who you were "communing" with.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I can demonstrate the power. You would have to spend a week with me and get to know the people I meet. Even then, you would likely try and test the belief by finding if the power and communion involves anything other than people and if my attribution is unfounded.
There is no way I can prove to you that God or Jesus is involved in the power (of changed lives) or the communion (prayer with others, fellowship, etc) You likely are biased towards simple human interaction and have no interest in the God I market. I really dont have any interest in the God you market either since He has no more interest in me than He does a roach in the corner of the room.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
LNA writes: Thats quite an oversimplification. The book is about works of the flesh(Laws and Customs) versus works of the Spirit.
Galatians is essentially over circumcision. The entire book. Gal 1:13-17 writes: For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. Gal 2:4-5 writes: Law versus Grace. Freedom from mandatory rules [This matter arose] because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you. versus making one a slave to rules...such as circumcision. The circumcision group is essentially the Law group.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Thats the basic belief of most of Christianity. Your science mind and its insistence on evidence notwithstanding. Your interpretation about Jesus existing from the beginning is nonsense. The whole point of the belief of Paul hinged on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Of the freedom we have to no longer be shackled to a bunch of laws and customs and that such trappings are not indicative to our standing before God. Neither is feeding the homeless or giving out spare change to drunks with no desire to change their habits or have them set free in Christ. And before you state your case yet again, I fully agree with your admonition to do good works as commanded. Your standing before God---as Paul markets it---is based on your trust in Jesus Christ. And he would market that because it is what changed him from a killing zealot to a preaching zealot. The guy had no say when he switched sides. It was done to him and for him.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: I can demonstrate the power. You would have to spend a week with me and get to know the people I meet. Even then, you would likely try and test the belief by finding if the power and communion involves anything other than people and if my attribution is unfounded. Of course I would test it and in addition, how would meeting you and the people you know prove anything?
Phat writes: There is no way I can prove to you that God or Jesus is involved in the power (of changed lives) or the communion (prayer with others, fellowship, etc) But I have never asked for proof only an explanation of how such communion is even possible and how you could test to know who you are communing with?
Phat writes: You likely are biased towards simple human interaction and have no interest in the God I market. I really dont have any interest in the God you market either since He has no more interest in me than He does a roach in the corner of the room. Yet I do not market any God or ever ask anyone to believe or even consider any God. What I try to talk about is doing and assuming responsibility and not waiting for someone else to do it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It's nonsense, your belief and the belief of any number of Christians notwithstanding. If there was any sense to it, it wouldn't have to be a belief.
[qs-ringo]Your interpretation about Jesus existing from the beginning is nonsense.[/ringo]Thats the basic belief of most of Christianity. Your science mind and its insistence on evidence notwithstanding. Phat writes:
And yet Christians are shackled to the biggest law of all and the biggest penalty of all, the need to believe versus eternal punishment.
The whole point of the belief of Paul hinged on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Of the freedom we have to no longer be shackled to a bunch of laws and customs and that such trappings are not indicative to our standing before God. Phat writes:
No it isn't. Matthew 25. Your standing before God is based on how you treat the least of His brethren. How you treat them MAY be based on your faith in Jesus or it may not be. Paul agreed that faith without works is dead. If you don't do the works, you don't have the faith; you're just spouting, "Lord! Lord!" in vain. The works are the criteria on which you are judged. The faith is only ONE way to get the works done.
Your standing before God---as Paul markets it---is based on your trust in Jesus Christ. Phat writes:
That's another empty belief.
The guy had no say when he switched sides. It was done to him and for him.
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