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Author Topic:   The Church And Sexual Expression
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 34 (793795)
11-04-2016 10:15 AM


There has been an ages old debate among people who call themselves Christian regarding the normalcy of same gender attraction and what it means for the church today. Recently I saw a video by a man whom resonated with my inner spirit.
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This Pastor emphasizes the need for the church to recognize the unique fit of each type of individual in society and in life.
His basic belief is that there are ways for homosexuals to express themselves in the church and in society at large that Christianity has rejected, repressed, and villified.
Check out the video and give me your comments.
Faith & Belief, or perhaps social issues.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 7:37 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 34 (793807)
11-06-2016 9:05 AM


Love and Sex
First of all, neither one of you has gotten the basic point of the video.
  • Love and sex are not the same thing. Our society has blown this one big time.
    There is no need to express attraction through sexual expression and, even if it can be labeled as sexual, the form of the expression can involve intimacy that need not culminate in sexual release. There is no biological need to do so. A hug can carry far more emotional weight. Women have taught us this for years. Sometimes they just want to be held and cuddled---as does everyone, essentially.
    My point is not to villify what our society terms as gay. The legal and social freedoms of human individuals has now extended to include all sexual preferences, and I'm not arguing against the legal rights.
    What I am suggesting is what the Pastor has suggested in this video--that there is a different role for same gender attraction than merely being encouraged to biologically "love" your spouse...and if a spouse of the same gender is the only solution.
    It is my contention that same gender attraction can be used as a tool for a deeper love---such as Jesus has and had, that can be used to nurture the church as a group---and that traditional religion has been shooting itself in the foot for not recognizing the role that can be played by such individuals.
    What churches and religions are NOT free to do is try to impose their rules on non-members.
    And no one has suggested this.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

  • Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by jar, posted 11-06-2016 9:08 AM Phat has replied
     Message 28 by Rrhain, posted 11-07-2016 8:54 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 7 of 34 (793809)
    11-06-2016 9:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Tangle
    11-06-2016 7:37 AM


    Its The Purpose
    Why on earth you think anyone needs to watch a video to know that that's obviously true is beyond me. It just highlights how fucked up religious 'thinking' is.
    Because society has not grown up enough to understand the difference between attraction, the purpose of the attraction, and the ways that the attraction can be expressed.
    Perhaps you can make an argument that it is not up to the church to define purpose and that the individual can and should be free to define it for themseves...but my argument is that society does not encourage people to get deeper with their emotions. Our motto in society is simply If it feels good, do it. Why do you think we have so many divorces?
    It is because heterosexuals are taught that man is an animal and in nature, a male can and does often have several different partners.
    Again, my basic argument is that sexual expression and compatibility should be treated deeper than is done.
    My critics will only point out that churches have no right to determine what should even means.
    My counterargument is that society needs to challenge itself to get deeper than mere biological urges and that there is a unique purpose for such urges.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 7:37 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 9:41 AM Phat has replied
     Message 11 by ringo, posted 11-06-2016 1:33 PM Phat has replied
     Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 11-06-2016 10:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 8 of 34 (793810)
    11-06-2016 9:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 6 by jar
    11-06-2016 9:08 AM


    Re: Love and Sex
    jar writes:
    Since determining who or what makes someone a spouse is a secular contractual issue it really is irrelevant what any church or religion thinks on the matter.
    Agreed in that it is a secular issue, but one could argue that everything is a secular issue. My challenge is for the club to take a stand that potential members might think about.
    Lets ask this: What is the purpose for a gay union?
    Does your club have any guidelines?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by jar, posted 11-06-2016 9:08 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by jar, posted 11-06-2016 9:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 12 of 34 (793876)
    11-06-2016 2:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by Tangle
    11-06-2016 9:41 AM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    Everyone on the planet knows and understands this.
    I don't think so. If everyone on the planet knew the meaning of love and of relationships and understood it fully, there would be no wars.
    Of course where you and I differ and will argue is that you think that people are born with no character defects and what we do and how we behave is essentially normal....whereas I believe that people are not born without flaws and that we are expected to work them out.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 9:41 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 3:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 13 of 34 (793877)
    11-06-2016 3:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
    11-06-2016 1:33 PM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    Our society does encourage a lot of voodoo nonsense about commitment and what a "committed relationship" should be. The problem isn't that there isn't enough of that; the problem is that it isn't realistic.
    Are you suggesting that humans should not strive for deeper insight? That the way we are is the way we will be?
    No wonder you dont want any sort of authority in your life apart from your own inner awareness.
    My argument is that you and all of us collectively---are not fully healthy just the way we are.
    To support my argument I present the growing number of addictions,compulsions,licentious liaisons and overall sensuality without responsibility that the human animal is plagued with.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by ringo, posted 11-06-2016 1:33 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 24 by ringo, posted 11-07-2016 10:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 17 of 34 (793930)
    11-07-2016 7:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 10 by Tangle
    11-06-2016 9:41 AM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    I have no idea what you're talking about. You seem to be involved in some sort of personal revelation.
    The only revelation that I have is that all love starts and ends with Jesus Christ.
    You can argue against this fact, but all that you have left is humanity--and you wont fully express your love for humanity without an insight deeper than mere biology.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 9:41 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 20 by jar, posted 11-07-2016 8:02 AM Phat has replied
     Message 21 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2016 8:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 25 by ringo, posted 11-07-2016 10:59 AM Phat has replied
     Message 29 by Rrhain, posted 11-07-2016 9:02 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 18 of 34 (793931)
    11-07-2016 7:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 16 by Coyote
    11-06-2016 11:18 PM


    Randroids & Individual Expression
    Rand basically teaches Objectivism
    I am a Christian, and do not support objectivism. Pursuit of one's own happiness is contrary to what Jesus taught.
    quote:
    1. Jesus preached the virtue of selflessness; Rand wrote a book called "The Virtue of Selfishness" (1964). Altruism is evil, she argued, and egoism the only true ethics.
    2. The Apostle Paul called the love of money the root of all evil. Rand wore a dollar sign brooch and saw to it that a florid dollar sign stood guard by her casket at her funeral. She also put a love letter to the almighty dollar on the lips of one of her "Atlas Shrugged" heroes, copper magnate Francisco d’Anconia (a speech Ryan has said he returns to repeatedly when pondering monetary policy). There d’Anconia calls money the root of all good."
    3. Blessed are the poor, Jesus says in the Gospel of Luke. And he says in the Gospel of Matthew that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to Ayn Rand, however, it is the traders (job creators in modern parlance) who like Atlas carry the weight of the world on their shoulders, while the poor are denounced as moochers and looters."
    4. The hope of the Christian gospel is the kingdom of God, but Rand's objectivist philosophy opposes "collectivism" at every turn. Man - every man - is an end in himself, he exists for his own sake, the inventor John Galt proclaims in "Atlas Shrugged," and the achievement of his own happiness is his highest moral purpose.
    5. The ultimate concern of Christianity is God. The ultimate concern of Randism is the unfettered freedom of the individual. While the Christian Trinity comprise the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Rand’s Trinity is I, me, mine.
    Man is not God, nor are we our own highest ideal. Perhaps atheists would tend to embrace objectivism more due to their ideal conception.
    Edited by Phat, : fixed

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 16 by Coyote, posted 11-06-2016 11:18 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 22 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2016 8:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 26 of 34 (793953)
    11-07-2016 11:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
    11-07-2016 10:59 AM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    You are a nut!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by ringo, posted 11-07-2016 10:59 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 27 of 34 (793954)
    11-07-2016 11:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 20 by jar
    11-07-2016 8:02 AM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    Do you have any idea how vacuous that sounds?
    Im sure that SI Hayakawa is channeling through you at this moment!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by jar, posted 11-07-2016 8:02 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 30 of 34 (794004)
    11-08-2016 9:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 29 by Rrhain
    11-07-2016 9:02 PM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    Did you honestly just argue that atheists don't love? That Jews don't love? That two-thirds of the entire planet doesn't love?
    Basically, yes. I am arguing that many people do not love enough.
    And seeing how this is a Faith & Belief topic, I will bring scripture into it.
    Because none of them have any connection to this "Jesus Christ" object you're talking about. They seem to be able to love just fine without it.
  • My belief is that the only reason we all are alive at all is because we are in the age of grace. Without Jesus Christ, life itself would not occur. Granted my critics will scoff at this or be offended, but I am simply sharing my belief.
  • The church exists so that its members can enjoy holy communion. This involves loving/knowing God and loving/knowing others.
    People outside of the church...perhaps that 2/3 that yo speak of, are obviously able to love each other without being required to worship or believe in God.
    Lets go to scripture.
    1 Cor 13:4-7 writes:
    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
    Whether it is a straight couple or a gay couple, the scripture exorts us to love.
  • Love is not jealous. If you really love someone you are willing to let them go if that is what their heart desires. God is the same way with us. He never makes anyone worship Him or believe in Him. He always hopes that we will, however.
    Does that make God needy? (Personally I think He does not need us so much as He knows that we need Him.)
    What is it that makes you think you know better than they do about their love?
    Im just sharing my belief. I can't make you agree with me nor can I make you love me or even like me.
    Neither can God.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by Rrhain, posted 11-07-2016 9:02 PM Rrhain has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by ringo, posted 11-08-2016 11:06 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 32 by Tangle, posted 11-08-2016 6:40 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 33 by Rrhain, posted 11-09-2016 1:20 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (2)
    Message 34 of 34 (794088)
    11-09-2016 4:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 33 by Rrhain
    11-09-2016 1:20 PM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    You do have a point. My intention was not to be hateful, but it appears I am being perceived as such.
    Perhaps I need to re evaluate my position.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by Rrhain, posted 11-09-2016 1:20 PM Rrhain has not replied

      
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