Here be my problem with "God"

Right, noone is perfect. I know SOME answers. I was merely pointing out what others believe. Are you really perfect if you do one good deed, Jesus says 77x7?------------------
-chris

Hi Chris, But Chris, you are implying this. A good person, who spends their life in service to others, never has a bad word to say about anyone, etc, is worth less than an evil, rotten scoundrel who did basically ONE good thing in their entire life, accepting Jesus on his deathbed.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

In a forgiving world they are both equal. The one who misses the truth falters.------------------
-chris

So which is it, messenjaH?Does the angel get to heaven despite not accepting Jesus or does the devil get there simply for doing so?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Refer back to the message you just replied to. Thank you.PEACE BE WITH YOU------------------
-chris

messenjaH responds to me:

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Refer back to the message you just replied to. Thank you.

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Refer back to Message 34 that was a reply to that message.Thank you.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I blatantly said my answer, I mean c'mon Rrhain, are you just emphasizing the choices to make me look bad? You can't be serious.

messenjaH responds to me:

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I blatantly said my answer

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Your answer contradicted itself and didn't actually say anything.You said they were equal and then said that the "one who misses the truth falters." So, which one is missing the truth? Obviously, they're not equal, so which is it?Do they both go to heaven? Do they both go to hell? Does one go and the other not and if that final, why that one and not the other?

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are you just emphasizing the choices to make me look bad?

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No, I'm emphasizing the choices in order to make you be direct and come right out and say it. I'm emphasizing the choices in order to make you put your money where your mouth is.

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You can't be serious.

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I most certainly am.If a person who is perfect in all ways except that, for whatever reason, does not accept Jesus dies, does he go to heaven?If a person who is reprehensible in all ways except that, just before he dies, he has a revelation and accepts Jesus, does he go to heaven?You need to be specific. "They both get treated equally" is not an answer because it doesn't tell us what actually happens. Where are they? Individually.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Charles Munroe eloquently brings up some good questions in this thread. To wit: 1) What about the billions plus who in past ages and to the present have never heard of Jesus? Do they go to hell also? 2) Since "Good works" won't get me into heaven does that mean I can go to church, pray, accept Jesus and ignore any good works. After all the good works will do nothing to get me into heaven. 3) Suppose a person accepts Jesus, doesn't do a damned thing in the way of Good works, goes to heaven and has to listen to some one in hell who, for what ever reason, never accepted Jesus or never heard of him but spent his or her entire life helping their fellow humans and doing good deeds. Sounds suspeciously like good deed are for naught but ass kissing will get you into heaven. 4) What of babies and little children who die young? Do they end up in hell with the real crud of society? 5) What does hell accomplish? The evil deeds are done, the evil doer can do no more evil and punishment will accomplish absolutley nothing. 6) Hell sounds suspeciously like extorsion and heaven like bribery.
7) A human mother or father LOVES and PROTECTS their children irregardless of whether their children love them. They would never send their children into a place like hell. Why would God, who is supposed to be loving,infinitely more intelligent react in such a primative and savage manner? Do you think that maybe heaven and hell are devices for controlling people and that the real message of Jesus Christ is about reforming not only Judism but humankind? Its your call on what you believe. Peace and Love to everyone!

I'm kind of jumping in the middle here, and if I'm repeating things that have already been said I apologize. The Internet nanny that the school is required to have on the dorm computer is really sensitive, so I haven't been able to read the first page.... The first problem with this is that you assume a perfect person exists. Most of us will go through life treating our fellow man decently, not break any major laws and being generally good people, but is that enough? The point is that a perfect man does not exist.I'm going a little off on Bible verses here....Romans 5:12 "Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so death came to all men because all sinned." It is not a question of what you do, it's a question of who you are. Blame it on a now tainted blood line from the original fall. You cannot be perfect and perfect is what is required because God is perfect. We've all lied or broke the law (yes, speeding counts) at some point. We are not perfect because we cannot be.So yes, the person who was good all there life will go to hell because good isn't enough. God is perfect and nothing that is not perfect can enter his presence.Death bed conversions are something that even Christians have a hard time with sometimes. You don't want a person who spent there life murdering people to end up in heaven simply because they saw the light in the end. It sucks. You want them to pay for what they did.But God doesn't work like that. That's what grace is all about. It doesn't matter what you did, it's all wiped clean. It doesn't matter when you come to him, he'll take you in just the same. He doesn't want anyone to go to Hell because He is love, but his justice demands payment. That's where Christ came in.It's a hard question, and I don't like the answer sometimes. But I know that God knows better than I do, and knows what's truly in people's hearts. It comes down to trust.I guess that's about it,Jenn

I think Rrhain is clearly speaking hypothetically, though he may very well know a perfect person. I think his question is valid, because such a person could exist.

I realized that he was speaking hypothetically but took it as an opportunity to make my point. The perfect man does not exist and that's why we need Christ.Every person since Adam (with the exception of Christ) has been born with an inherent sin nature. We sin because we are born with it. It's not something we do, it's something we are. You don't have to teach young children to lie, they do it when they fear punishment.Christ is the exception because he did not have the tainted blood line. You said you were a Christian before, you know all about the virgin birth stuff.We need Christ because good isnt' enough, perfect is required to come into the presence of a perfect God. We could not and can not attain perfection on our own because we are born without the capacity for it.

Angeldust,I understand that you are stating things based upon things you believe, and that's fine. But, from what we know about biology, don't you understand that the blood of Jesus was at least half-tainted from Mary's input? Also, the story as stated, assumes that god's DNA is compatible with human DNA. Do you visualize god taking human form and having an affair with Mary until she finally becomes pregnant? Do you think it was more like a one night stand and god used its miraculous power to insure the one-shot impregnation? Or do you think god "miraculously" impregnated Mary outside of any sexual act? If the latter, are you absolutely certain that Jesus was even half-human? Note that I ask these questions of you from the perspective of one who sees no "filth" in human sexual acts; and not to insult you, or anyone else reading this.Also, perhaps you should not be so quick to dismiss the book of James. Works is right up there with faith. Are deathbed conversions truly sincere for people who have lived terrible lives? From your perspective, I think you'd have to say that "only your maker knows for sure". But I think you should get as far away from teaching that as you can, else you'll be promoting the idea that people can live these terrible lives and just cover their asses at the last moment, and all is well. Good works should be regarded on peer level with faith to promote harmonious living in society, if for nothing else.Verzem

I appreciate your effort in providing a long missive reporting your answers to my questions. Unfortunately you haven't really answered anything and avoided answering the most important key question " What about those that never heard the message of Jesus? Do they go to hell?" Fundamentalist Christianity would infer that the answer is yes; an answer which borders on the insane.
Sin did not enter the world or infect humans because of an act of two people thousands of years ago; it was already there in the form of the serpent. Who made the serpent; surely not Adam or Eve. If the Bible is to be taken absolutely literal the answer would be 'through the incompetence of God who made Satan and allowed him freedom to act'. If there had not been a Satan in the Garden of Eden we would not be having this discussion. Use your logic and think things through rather than spouting doctrine that in of itself makes no sense.
The idea that Jesus was a reformer is far more logical than acceptance of the doctrine that one gets into heaven only through accepting him. Jesus as a teacher showing the way to reform humanity is logical. A literal reading of text in the fundamentalist fashion leads one to the irrational conclusion that God is incompetent, and a failure who has made a mess of things. Accepting that God is not a failure, and is rational, requires the dismissal of nonsensical interpretations and a view of Jesus as one of many avatars who down through history have tried to show humnakind a better way of behavior.
Think about that idea for awhile and make a reply that is well thought out and rational. Years ago I engaged in talks with Communists and I could never get them to tell me what they perwsonally thought. It was always a waving of the little Red book and "Chairman Mao says--". Is there a possibility that you are doing the same except waving a Bible and saying 'the prohets say ---'?

Well, if it's not possible to be perfect, why does God send us to hell if we're not? Isn't that rather unfair of him to blame us for not being something it's impossible to be? The virgin birth and Mary's immaculate conception are two seperate doctrines, just so you know. Which rather invalidates what you said here: because Mary was immaculately concieved, she didn't have "sin nature" either.I guess I just don't see how it's fair for all of us to get the blame for something Adam and Eve did. And what about free will? How can God expect me to have any meaningful free will - including the ability ot make positive moral choices - if he knows that sin nature is going to prevent that?If there's no potential possibility for us to make positive moral choices, then we're not truly free. We're like animals, unable to be held responsible for what our nature compels us to do.