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Author Topic:   The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 106 of 267 (794738)
11-23-2016 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
11-23-2016 8:19 AM


Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
Phat,responding to jar writes:
Do you consider the idea that the messenger is the message appropriate?
jar writes:
I consider that a meaningless assertion; just plain silly.
Lets discuss this idea. Is Jesus Christ the message? How did Paul see it?
Rom 1:1-6 writes:
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God- 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
Is Pauls words indicative of the messenger(Jesus Christ) being the message that he was preaching?
Note:
  • Paul calls himself a servant of Jesus Christ. The evidence at that time was that Jesus Christ had died. The message was that Jesus Christ was in fact alive--through Paul. Comments?
    Rom 1:7 writes:
    Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Paul appears to be speaking as if though convinced that Jesus Christ was not dead but was in fact alive.
    Phat,in another thread writes:
    Would I be correct in assuming that you believe that being a "good" or productive Christian does not even require a Living Christ?
    jar writes:
    Well first you would have to explain what a Living Christ might even be.
    Paul is attempting to explain--market if you will--what the term means.
    jar writes:
    I cannot see how any Christ would be a requirement. Perhaps you could explain those issues?
    Perhaps.
    Phat,responding to jar writes:
    Do you consider the idea that the messenger is the message appropriate?
    jar writes:
    I consider that a meaningless assertion; just plain silly.
    1 Cor 1:18-25 writes:
    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
    "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
    the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
    20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
    What does Paul mean here? What does it mean to preach Christ crucified?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 105 by jar, posted 11-23-2016 8:19 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 107 by jar, posted 11-23-2016 11:41 AM Phat has replied
     Message 108 by ringo, posted 11-23-2016 2:24 PM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 107 of 267 (794739)
    11-23-2016 11:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
    11-23-2016 11:30 AM


    Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
    Phat writes:
    1 Cor 1:18-25 writes:
    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
    "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
    the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
    20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
    What does Paul mean here? What does it mean to preach Christ crucified?
    You would have to ask Paul but it does seem very much like what much of Christianity markets as opposed to what Jesus marketed. It seems simply another example of Paul the "End Times" "what's in it for me" salesman.
    I have no idea what it means nor have I ever had anyone who seemed able to explain it in anything but word salad.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 106 by Phat, posted 11-23-2016 11:30 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 115 by Phat, posted 11-29-2016 6:52 AM jar has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (1)
    Message 108 of 267 (794741)
    11-23-2016 2:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
    11-23-2016 11:30 AM


    Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
    Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
    No.
    The wisdom of the world is all we have, whether it purports to come from God or not.
    For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
    Notice the distinction between the "foolishness of what was preached" and the salvation of those who believe. Matthew 25 makes the same distinction: those who REALLY believe practice what they believe - they bear fruit; those who preach foolishness never knew Him.
    Ironically, pretending to "know" Him is the exact way NOT to know Him.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 106 by Phat, posted 11-23-2016 11:30 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 109 by Phat, posted 11-24-2016 10:19 AM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 109 of 267 (794750)
    11-24-2016 10:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 108 by ringo
    11-23-2016 2:24 PM


    Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
    The wisdom of the world is all you have if you don't have Christ. Matthew 25 is another topic.
    Phil 1:1-6 writes:
    To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:
    2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3 I thank my God every time I remember you. 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. ....
    Paul preached Christ virtually non-stop. He believed without a doubt that Christ was alive in us now and would return in bodily form at some time in the future.
    No one suggests that Pauls message differs much from the message of Jesus.
    I suppose we could make a case that Jesus Himself preached "Self Crucified" or in other words die to your own flesh and get busy doing for others...whereas Paul preached Christ Crucified and seemingly believed that Christ in him was preaching, talking, and exhorting others.
    I suppose that a case could be made that Paul was obsessed with Jesus Christ.
    Perhaps Paul felt guilt over all of those whom he killed who were Christian converts. Perhaps in a way Paul identified so strongly with the one who was crucified that he sentenced himself to death(It is no longer I who live but Christ in me) for having killed those who loved Jesus.
    That last line says it all. Paul believed that a human could do nothing by themselves...perhaps again over guilt at the crimes of Saul.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 108 by ringo, posted 11-23-2016 2:24 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 110 by jar, posted 11-24-2016 10:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 111 by ringo, posted 11-24-2016 10:51 AM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 110 of 267 (794751)
    11-24-2016 10:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
    11-24-2016 10:19 AM


    Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
    Phat writes:
    The wisdom of the world is all you have if you don't have Christ.
    Again, that's just nonsense. What does that even mean? Give us an example of any wisdom that is not of the world?
    How can there be any wisdom that is not of the world?

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 109 by Phat, posted 11-24-2016 10:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 111 of 267 (794752)
    11-24-2016 10:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
    11-24-2016 10:19 AM


    Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
    Phat writes:
    The wisdom of the world is all you have if you don't have Christ.
    No. The wisdom of the world is all you have, period. It's the wisdom of the world that's telling you everything you think you know about Christ - the same as the wisdom of the world is telling you that hydrogen burns.
    Phat writes:
    Matthew 25 is another topic.
    Matthew 25 is Jesus (supposedly) telling you the criteria on which you will be judged. Why would you let Paul's second-hand message(s) supersede that? Why would you even read the Philippians' mail?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 109 by Phat, posted 11-24-2016 10:19 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 112 by Phat, posted 11-24-2016 12:39 PM ringo has replied
     Message 114 by Phat, posted 11-29-2016 6:27 AM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 112 of 267 (794755)
    11-24-2016 12:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 111 by ringo
    11-24-2016 10:51 AM


    Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
    Paul supposedly met Jesus after Christs death, burial, and resurrection. Jesus supposedly knew God.
    Why should i trust the message that tells me at times that the Bible is totally the imagination of men...and then a few posts later tell me that Matthew 25 is a more direct message than any 2nd hand information? We basically have two messages competing for best description of a Christian.
    1) Christianity is about what we do. It is irrelevant what we believe.
    or
    2) Christianity is about Christ. It is about what we do and about what we believe. Doing is not enough.
    Of course, #1 presupposes that no one is created fallen or damned. Thus #1 emphasizes good works as the only charge in life. #2 adds belief to that charge.
    Critics may say that belief in God is irrelevant to the charge. I say that belief is an essential part of what being a Christian is all about.
    Matthew 25 is Jesus (supposedly) telling you the criteria on which you will be judged.
    The audience at the time of Matthew 25 was unaware of any concept or fulfilled promise of a Savior. They literally would be judged only on what they did.
    Why would you let Paul's second-hand message(s) supersede that?
    Because Paul obtained first hand information from the same source that taught us Matthew 25.
    Why would you even read the Philippians' mail?
    Because i believe that the NT is written to us. Not just to the Romans, Corinthians,etc.
    Edited by Phat, : better post
    Edited by Phat, : added input

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 111 by ringo, posted 11-24-2016 10:51 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 118 by ringo, posted 11-30-2016 2:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 113 of 267 (794833)
    11-29-2016 6:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 94 by jar
    11-21-2016 8:28 AM


    Re: GOD: Learning on the Job or Omniscient?
    Show some evidence that Jesus was learning on the job. That might help shed light on the concept of Jesus as Gods son. After all, if Dad learned on the job so should His son.
    I think I see the disconnect between us. After all, you believe that all Gods written about in scripture are creations of the human mind.
    This would explain why you see GOD as eternally unknowable.
    jar writes:
    The issue is that the God people worship is always a creation of themselves, it is a human creation.
    Most folk it seems do not seem to think or understand that. They talk about the God of the Bible or the God of Scripture when in reality there is no such critter, rather there are multiple Gods of the Bible and Gods of Scripture.
    Paul did not seem to think so. In fact, he addressed those Jews who thought that Jesus was simply a good teacher...adding value to Judaism.
    1 Cor 1:22-25 writes:
    22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
    Paul preached of a Christ who was crucified yet who was and is living. Paul did not preach of a God created in our minds...rather of a God who is not distant and aloof nor one who learns on the job.
    jar writes:
    Just as there are many Gods of the Bible and Gods of Scripture, there are many different Christians. Each flavor creates the Christianity they desire.
    Evidently, according to you, we create the God we desire and the Christianity we desire. The emphasis, you may notice, (and preach) is on what we do rather than on what He has done. Paul, in contrast, preached of a God made knowable through His eternally living Son. Critics may accuse Paul of starting a new religion, but if true, these same critics see what Jesus taught as essentially reformed Judaism.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 94 by jar, posted 11-21-2016 8:28 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 114 of 267 (794834)
    11-29-2016 6:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 111 by ringo
    11-24-2016 10:51 AM


    Belief over Evidence.
    ringo writes:
    The wisdom of the world is all you have, period. It's the wisdom of the world that's telling you everything you think you know about Christ - the same as the wisdom of the world is telling you that hydrogen burns.
    Not so. It is Christ who is telling me the difference between the wisdom of the world and the wisdom of Him.
    The problem is not about a lack of information. The problem is a lack of belief.
    This is essentially the split between us. You see John as authored by a human,using human wisdom, changing the message.
    BELIEF, BELIEVE, BELIEVERS
    pisteuo NT:4100, "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine.
    The evidence confirms the idea that John was persuading people to place trust and reliance upon the idea of a Risen Christ and not just on the memory of a dead Jewish teacher. This is why your side emphasizes being good Jews (or atheists) who dutifully do many good works for the sake of others. And again...I have no problem with this belief apart from the fact that you steer around the idea that a Risen Christ has value.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 111 by ringo, posted 11-24-2016 10:51 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 117 by Taq, posted 11-30-2016 10:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 119 by ringo, posted 11-30-2016 2:18 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 115 of 267 (794835)
    11-29-2016 6:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 107 by jar
    11-23-2016 11:41 AM


    Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
    jar writes:
    Give us an example of any wisdom that is not of the world?
    ...we preach Christ crucified...a stumbling block (offense) to Jews...
    Is it an offense to value belief over evidence? To this very day,Jews await evidence. You claim that nobody can explain the meaning of being alive after crucifixtion to you---that it is all word salad.
    What does Paul mean here? What does it mean to preach Christ crucified?
    jar writes:
    You would have to ask Paul but it does seem very much like what much of Christianity markets as opposed to what Jesus marketed. It seems simply another example of Paul the "End Times" "what's in it for me" salesman.
    That really burns you up doesn't it? Not Paul..but the way they twisted Paul...and Jesus.(I can empathize with you, by the way)
    How can there be any wisdom that is not of the world?
    Depends if the source of the information is not of this world. Would you say that it is impossible for GOD to communicate with humanity...even through a redactor? More likely you would consider it offensive to suggest a departure from what you see as the message from Jesus the Jewish teacher. "...we preach Christ crucified...a stumbling block (offense) to Jews..."

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 107 by jar, posted 11-23-2016 11:41 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 116 by jar, posted 11-29-2016 9:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 116 of 267 (794842)
    11-29-2016 9:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
    11-29-2016 6:52 AM


    Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
    Phat; your replies never seem to have anything to do with the quote you are responding to. It changes from a conversation to herding kittens.
    Example:
    Phat writes:
    jar writes:
    Give us an example of any wisdom that is not of the world?
    ...we preach Christ crucified...a stumbling block (offense) to Jews...
    Is it an offense to value belief over evidence? To this very day,Jews await evidence. You claim that nobody can explain the meaning of being alive after crucifixtion to you---that it is all word salad.
    What does Paul mean here? What does it mean to preach Christ crucified?
    I ask a question. You respond with questions totally unrelated to examples of wisdom that is not of this world.
    You end with "What does it mean to preach Christ crucified?" and all I can do is say, "I have been asking you to explain that all along. What does that mean?"
    Phat writes:
    jar writes:
    How can there be any wisdom that is not of the world?
    Depends if the source of the information is not of this world. Would you say that it is impossible for GOD to communicate with humanity...even through a redactor? More likely you would consider it offensive to suggest a departure from what you see as the message from Jesus the Jewish teacher. "...we preach Christ crucified...a stumbling block (offense) to Jews..."
    And again? You do not answer the question or even seem to understand the question.
    What does "Christ crucified" mean. What is the teaching? How is Christ being crucified any stumbling block to any Jew? Sheesh. Who tells you such nonsense? When someone says something that silly how can you keep from simply laughing in their face?
    How can you identify the source of this supposed information? How can it be determined that God is communicating through a redactor?
    More examples.
    Phat writes:
    jar writes:
    The issue is that the God people worship is always a creation of themselves, it is a human creation.
    Most folk it seems do not seem to think or understand that. They talk about the God of the Bible or the God of Scripture when in reality there is no such critter, rather there are multiple Gods of the Bible and Gods of Scripture.
    Paul did not seem to think so. In fact, he addressed those Jews who thought that Jesus was simply a good teacher...adding value to Judaism.
    1 Cor 1:22-25 writes:
    22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
    Notice in your quotation Paul still gives no hint of what it is he is marketing. All you are doing is repeating the bumper sticker as though it actually was an explanation. It also has absolutely nothing to do with the quote you are responding to. That is the big perversion of proof text quote mined Christianity. You pick out tiny bits and take them totally out of context. If you look at ALL of 1 Cor though you find that Paul is again and still talking about behavior.
    Phat writes:
    jar writes:
    Just as there are many Gods of the Bible and Gods of Scripture, there are many different Christians. Each flavor creates the Christianity they desire.
    Evidently, according to you, we create the God we desire and the Christianity we desire. The emphasis, you may notice, (and preach) is on what we do rather than on what He has done. Paul, in contrast, preached of a God made knowable through His eternally living Son. Critics may accuse Paul of starting a new religion, but if true, these same critics see what Jesus taught as essentially reformed Judaism.
    Well Phat, Jesus was a Jew and was trying to reform Judaism. Jesus was never a Christian. At the time Paul wrote 1 Cor he was still a Jew and identified as a Jew. Christianity was still primarily just another Jewish sect.
    And again what does your reply have to do with what is quoted? Is there only one Chapter in Club Christianity? Do all Christians have the same idea of what Christianity is, what God is? Are there both Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian chapters? Are there not Christians who consider the Bible as without error and factual and also Christians that understand the Bible is filled with factual errors, contradictions and ambiguities?
    What does the evidence show?

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 115 by Phat, posted 11-29-2016 6:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 9973
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 5.7


    (1)
    Message 117 of 267 (794859)
    11-30-2016 10:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
    11-29-2016 6:27 AM


    Re: Belief over Evidence.
    Phat writes:
    Not so. It is Christ who is telling me the difference between the wisdom of the world and the wisdom of Him.
    Any chance you could record that conversation?
    Also, what is the "wisdom of Him"? From what we can see, it is purely the invention of the human mind.
    The problem is not about a lack of information. The problem is a lack of belief.
    What information?
    The evidence confirms the idea that John was persuading people to place trust and reliance upon the idea of a Risen Christ and not just on the memory of a dead Jewish teacher. This is why your side emphasizes being good Jews (or atheists) who dutifully do many good works for the sake of others. And again...I have no problem with this belief apart from the fact that you steer around the idea that a Risen Christ has value.
    How do you know that what the Bible commands is moral or good? You use your own reasoning and moral code to figure that out, don't you?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by Phat, posted 11-29-2016 6:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 118 of 267 (794871)
    11-30-2016 2:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
    11-24-2016 12:39 PM


    Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
    Phat writes:
    Why should i trust the message that tells me at times that the Bible is totally the imagination of men...and then a few posts later tell me that Matthew 25 is a more direct message than any 2nd hand information?
    You're the one who thinks the Bible has some relevance. I'm just pointing out to you what it actually says.
    Phat writes:
    Christianity is about what we do. It is irrelevant what we believe.
    I've explained this to you many, many times: The actions are the demonstration of the belief. If you don't act, you don't really believe.
    Phat writes:
    The audience at the time of Matthew 25 was unaware of any concept or fulfilled promise of a Savior. They literally would be judged only on what they did.
    Indeed. That promise was made up later.
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    Why would you let Paul's second-hand message(s) supersede that?
    Because Paul obtained first hand information from the same source that taught us Matthew 25.
    That doesn't answer the question. What did Paul change? And why?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by Phat, posted 11-24-2016 12:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (1)
    Message 119 of 267 (794873)
    11-30-2016 2:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
    11-29-2016 6:27 AM


    Re: Belief over Evidence.
    Phat writes:
    It is Christ who is telling me the difference between the wisdom of the world and the wisdom of Him.
    Not so. It is earthly preachers who are telling you.
    Phat writes:
    The problem is a lack of belief.
    You have a belief in belief but you don't understand what belief means.
    Phat writes:
    The evidence confirms the idea that John was persuading people to place trust and reliance upon the idea of a Risen Christ and not just on the memory of a dead Jewish teacher.
    What evidence?
    Your own definition makes a distinction between reliance and mere credence. Mere credence is saying, "Lord! Lord!" - pretending to believe. Reliance is making your belief a part of your day to day life - your belief becomes action.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by Phat, posted 11-29-2016 6:27 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 120 by Phat, posted 12-03-2016 2:00 PM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 120 of 267 (794997)
    12-03-2016 2:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 119 by ringo
    11-30-2016 2:18 PM


    Re: Belief over Evidence.
    ringo writes:
    You have a belief in belief but you don't understand what belief means.
    Lets study it.
    Vines writes:
    BELIEF, BELIEVE, BELIEVERS
    A. Verbs.
    1. pisteuo NT:4100, "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers. See COMMIT, INTRUST, TRUST.
    2. peitho NT:3982, "to persuade," in the middle and passive voices signifies "to suffer oneself to be persuaded," e. g., Luke 16:31; Heb 13:18; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4, RV, "were persuaded," and 27:11, "gave (more) heed"; in Acts 28:24, "believed. See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD.
    Note: For apisteo, the negative of No. 1, and apeitheo, the negative of No. 2, see DISBELIEVE, DISOBEDIENT.
    B. Noun.
    pistis NT:4102, "faith," is translated "belief" in Rom 10:17; 2 Thess 2:13. Its chief significance is a conviction respecting God and His Word and the believer's relationship to Him. See ASSURANCE, FAITH, FIDELITY.
    Note: In 1 Cor 9:5 the word translated "believer" (RV), is adelphe, "a sister," so 16:1; 7:15; 2:15, used, in the spiritual sense, of one connected by the tie of the Christian faith.
    C. Adjective.
    pistos NT:4103, (a) in the active sense means "believing, trusting"; (b) in the passive sense, "trusty, faithful, trustworthy." It is translated "believer" in 2 Cor 6:15; "them that believe" in 1 Tim 4:12, RV (KJV, "believers ");in 1 Tim 5:16, "if any woman that believeth," lit. "if any believing woman." So in 6:2, "believing masters." In 1 Peter 1:21 the RV, following the most authentic mss., gives the noun form, "are believers in God" (KJV, "do believe in God"). In John 20:27 it is translated "believing." It is best understood with significance (a), above, e. g., in Gal 3:9; Acts 16:1; 2 Cor 6:15; Titus 1:6; it has significance (b), e. g., in 1 Thess 5:24; 2 Thess 3:3 (see Notes on Thes. p. 211, and Gal. p. 126, by Hogg and Vine). See FAITHFUL, SURE.
    Notes: (1) The corresponding negative verb is apisteo, 2 Tim 2:13, KJV, "believe not" RV, "are faithless," in contrast to the statement "He abideth faithful."
    (2) The negative noun apistia, "unbelief," is used twice in Matthew 13:58; 17:20), three times in Mark 6:6; 9:24; 16:14, four times in Romans 3:3; 4:20; 11:20,23; elsewhere in 1 Tim 1:13 and Heb 3:12,19.
    (3) The adjective apistos is translated "unbelievers" in 1 Cor 6:6, and 2 Cor 6:14; in v. 15, RV, "unbeliever" (KJV, "infidel"); so in 1 Tim 5:8; "unbelieving" in 1 Cor 7:12-15; 14:22-24; 2 Cor 4:4; Titus 1:15; Rev 21:8; "that believe not" in 1 Cor 10:27. In the Gospels it is translated "faithless" in Matt 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; John 20:27, but in Luke 12:46, RV, "unfaithful," KJV, "unbelievers." Once it is translated "incredible," Acts 26:8. See FAITHLESS, INCREDIBLE, UNBELIEVER.
    (4) Plerophoreo, in Luke 1:1 (KJV, "are most surely believed," lit., "have had full course"), the RV renders "have been fulfilled." See FULFILL, KNOW, PERSUADE, PROOF.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 119 by ringo, posted 11-30-2016 2:18 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 121 by ringo, posted 12-20-2016 10:49 AM Phat has replied

      
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