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Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 586 of 892 (795035)
12-04-2016 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by NoNukes
12-04-2016 5:24 PM


Re: The Italian hotel owner
quote:
[Faith said]"You all seem to be having a problem with the question of whom Jesus is addressing. He's addressing YOU. YOU are to take care of your neighbor. YOU are not to tell SOMEBODY ELSE to take care of their neighbor and YOU are not to send the police to MAKE them take care of their neighbor. YOU are to do whatever YOU can do, CHEERFULLY, as God also says He loves a cheerful giver, but instead you are for forcing a man to do something he clearly does not want to do."
[NoNukes responded]
I just quoted a verse for the Bible telling folks that they shall allow gleaning. That means that God told folks that they shall provide for their neighbor. It is not a voluntary thing at all. It was a commandment with the force of law.
You seem to be having a problem taking the Bible at face value.
Beyond that, Jesus instructions for Christians are not voluntary. If you call yourself a Christian, then you must follow Jesus example and teachings.
I thought the "police" policy was to send in border agents to police the border and keep people out.
Is Faith saying we should finally get rid of borders?
End the forced policing and impositions. I like that.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 587 of 892 (795039)
12-04-2016 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by NoNukes
12-04-2016 5:24 PM


Re: The Italian hotel owner
You are actually going to push your ridiculous analogy then?
Leaving parts of your field unharvested so that poor people can glean from them enough to eat is a very specific command to LAND OWNERS. It is illustrated in action in the Book of Ruth where she comes to glean at the edges of the land owned by Boaz, so that she and her mother-in-law Naomi can eat. This is not a general command to provide for your neighbor, it is a command to simply leave something for the poor from your crops. And again it is a direct command to the land owner to act on from his own free will, it is not something we are to force on someone. It's between the land owner and God, and if he commits sin in not doing it God will punish him, there is nothing that says YOU can dictate any of this. In any case, there is absolutely no comparison with a hotel owner. What could he leave of his "land" for others to "glean from?" {abe: Oh, perhaps he could keep a small room in the basement for someone who can't afford a regular room? That is, "gleaning" certainly doesn't imply giving your whole field to the poor.) The command to him would be more along the lines of giving donations from his earnings to the cause of the poor. There is nothing implied that requires him to share his property. That's absurd.
The second of the two great commandments, in which are contained "all the law and the prophets," to love God being the first, is to love your neighbor as you love yourself.
HOW you are to love your neighbor is actually spelled out in the second table of the Ten Commandments from which this second commandment is abstracted: that is, you love your neighbor by observing the sabbath rest, by honoring "parents," which includes all legitimate authorities, by not stealing, murdering, lying, committing adultery or coveting the possessions of your neighbor. I suggest that all you twisters of the Biblical commands are violating the tenth of the ten commandments by coveting the property of the hotel owner for purposes YOU define. The Bible says no such thing. Loving your neighbor is also spelled out in positive terms in many of the examples given in Leviticus and Deuteronomy as well as in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. NONE of it even remotely implies that you -- let alone the government -- are to forcibly make use of another person's property for ANY reason whatever.
Of course the commandments are not voluntary for those to whom they are addressed. But you are trying to force them on people who for all you know already fulfill the commandment according to their means and according to common sense. The hotel owner COULD decide to provide housing for refugees to fulfill the commandment, but he is under absolutely no obligation to do so. He may contribute generously to funds for the poor for all you know, and he probably doesn't steal, murder, lie, commit adultery or covet from his poor neighbors. Or he may not obey the commandment at all and is in sin before God. In any case, YOU have no right to tell him how to respond to God.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2016 5:24 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 588 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2016 8:06 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 588 of 892 (795040)
12-04-2016 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 587 by Faith
12-04-2016 7:41 PM


Re: The Italian hotel owner
Leaving parts of your field unharvested so that poor people can glean from them enough to eat is a very specific command to LAND OWNERS.
Yes it was very specific. And it is clear a counter example to your argument that we are not commanded to help our neighbors. That such help is merely voluntary. Perhaps you need more examples? I'll get to that.
HOW you are to love your neighbor is actually spelled out in the second table of the Ten Commandments from which this second commandment is abstracted: that is, you love your neighbor by observing the sabbath rest, by honoring "parents," which includes all legitimate authorities, by not stealing, murdering, lying, committing adultery or coveting the possessions of your neighbor.
Jesus describes exactly what he means by love your neighbor throughout the gospel both in direct words and by example. It clearly extends beyond simply not breaking the ten commandments contrary to your suggestion here.
Those examples?:
quote:
No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
quote:
Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
quote:
Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.
quote:
Anyone who withholds kindness from a friend forsakes the fear of the Almighty.
quote:
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
If that is not enough, then perhaps you are not amenable to teaching.
Clearly what we are commanded goes far beyond simply not stealing your neighbors ox, or coveting his maidservant. The idea that love and charity is so limited is completely laughable.
But now I do fully understand at least one thing that has always puzzled me. Namely why some Christians can embrace selfishness in view of the clear direction from Jesus to do otherwise. I suspect that they read the Bible just as you do; as if Matthew 25 had never been written.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by Faith, posted 12-04-2016 7:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by jar, posted 12-04-2016 8:29 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 590 by Faith, posted 12-04-2016 8:37 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 592 by Phat, posted 12-05-2016 1:49 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 593 by Faith, posted 12-05-2016 4:32 AM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 589 of 892 (795041)
12-04-2016 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by NoNukes
12-04-2016 8:06 PM


Re: The Italian hotel owner
NN writes:
But now I do fully understand at least one thing that has always puzzled me. Namely why some Christians can embrace selfishness in view of the clear direction from Jesus to do otherwise. I suspect that they read the Bible just as you do; as if Matthew 25 had never been written.
An in particular don't seem to realize that ALL of the Goats were followers of Jesus.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 590 of 892 (795042)
12-04-2016 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by NoNukes
12-04-2016 8:06 PM


Re: The Italian hotel owner
I thoroughly answered all your wrongheaded claims. Go read iit again. You are making up pure garbage. I'm talking about making SOMEBODY ELSE obey the commandments
[I removed my intemperate outburst, though your accusations are obnoxious and incendiary. Slandering a fellow believer is certainly not obeying any of Jesus' commands.]
I thought of two more things I wanted to say before you made the latest post.
One: Ananias and Sapphira who withheld some of the proceeds from the sale of their property from the disciples' fund, lied about it when they didn't have any reason to, since as the disciples said, they had the full right to use their property however they wanted to, to give or withhold whatever amount they chose. Instead they pretended to give it all when they gave only part of it. The point is this idea that the hotel owner had some kind of obligation to provide for the refugees is wrong wrong wrong. And again you have no idea what he may already do to obey the commandment. And you also have no idea whether he himself would suffer severely financially if he did what you self-appointed judges of his conscience want him to do, What a bunch of Pharisees you all are.
And the other thing was that Jesus tells us if someone steals our coat to also give them our cloak. He doesn't tell us that we are to make someone else give up their cloak, which is what you all are doing.
As usual I'm sorry I got myself trapped into any discussion at EvC
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2016 8:06 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by Admin, posted 12-04-2016 9:43 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 810 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-04-2017 10:54 AM Faith has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 591 of 892 (795043)
12-04-2016 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 590 by Faith
12-04-2016 8:37 PM


Re: The Italian hotel owner
Stop this.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by Faith, posted 12-04-2016 8:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 592 of 892 (795046)
12-05-2016 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 588 by NoNukes
12-04-2016 8:06 PM


Re: The Italian hotel owner
I agree with the commandments given by Jesus. What I don't agree with is the idea that our government should legislate morality on its citizens. I agree fully that the command not to be selfish should be between an individual and God. The government should never interfere in these matters.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2016 8:06 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 593 of 892 (795047)
12-05-2016 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 588 by NoNukes
12-04-2016 8:06 PM


Re: The Italian hotel owner
Nothing I said "limited "charity. In pointing out that the Shalt Nots of the the Ten Commandments are loving your neighbor I was giving the correct basic understanding that everybody ignores, not limiting anything. I went on to mention the other places in the Bible where the commandment is expanded. Your list is part of it, but how dare you accuse anyone of disobeying it.
No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
Which is certainly expressed in the Shalt Nots. Not LIMITED to them but expressed in them.
:Carry each other’burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
This means fellow believers. But even if it did not, you are free to go to the refugees in their camps and help them in many ways, and many people do that. Everything from food and shelter to sanitation to medical help to necessary supplies. Or, why not go to China where there are lots of suffering people, particularly Christians? Or put in time at the soup kitchen at the mission. These things are up to the individual conscience, including your own; other people's consciences are none of your business.
Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.
Loving one another specifically means brothers and sisters IN CHRIST. The way you attack fellow believers for not living up to YOUR mistaken understanding of the commandments is not loving them. Christians are known for being big givers, NN, stop being a Pharisee.
Anyone who withholds kindness from a friend forsakes the fear of the Almighty.
How are the refugees your "friend?" And why do you get to dictate how a person is to be kind to anyone anyway?
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Take it to heart and leave everybody else to take it to heart as they will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2016 8:06 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by NoNukes, posted 12-06-2016 2:46 AM Faith has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 594 of 892 (795051)
12-05-2016 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 506 by RAZD
12-01-2016 10:22 AM


Re: Election Fraud 2016 -- Wisconsin
Wisconsin continues to make the news ... here from "Bipartisan Report"
quote:
BREAKING: 5 Of 9 Voting Machines In Wisconsin County Found TAMPERED With (DETAILS)
Strange things seemed to keep happening in Wisconsin on Election Day. For example, four wards in Outagamie County were found to have more votes counted than ballots cast. Now, an observer of the vote recount in St. Croix County discovered that the seals of five out of nine of the voting machines were tampered with.
Here’s one of the St. Croix County voting machines with the seal broken.
So far, no explanation from election officials from Wisconsin or St. Croix County can explain why the seals on more than half of the vote counting machines have been visibly tampered with. Perhaps the GOP or Russia had someone hack the machines Or maybe someone in La Croix County is the kind of person who just can’t stop picking at those pesky labels. Either way, the Palmer Report finds this highly disturbing.
Dane County Circuit Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn ruled that the Wisconsin vote recount can proceed. Alas, she rejected Jill Stein’s request to recount the ballots by hand and left it to county officials to decide. Twelve counties have chosen to opt out, but the broken seals may convince Bailey-Rihn to reverse her ruling.
Scott runs such a model government ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 595 of 892 (795057)
12-05-2016 12:54 PM


Ignorance is strength
Thought you would never see a George Orwell line come to life? Think again. This is Trump supporter Scottie Nell Hughes speaking on the Diane Rehm Show:
quote:
One thing that has been interesting this entire campaign season to watch is that people that say facts are facts; they’re not really facts. Everybody has a way, it’s kind of like looking at ratings or looking at a glass of half-full water. Everybody has a way of interpreting them to be the truth or not true...There’s no such thing, unfortunately, anymore of facts.
The most recent example that comes to mind of a Trump "fact" is that he'd been planning the phone call to the Taiwan president for some time. The man doesn't even know what he's going to say five minutes from now, let alone months ahead.
And apparently the Trump camp still hasn't given up on arresting those they disagree with. Trump's former campaign manager Corey Lewandowski threatened New York Times executive editor Dean Baquet by declaring "He should be in jail" just for stating that he'd be willing to go to jail to get a copy of Trump's taxes. Which Trump still hasn't released and probably never will.
For every man who warned of the true implications of Hitler's rise to power in Germany there were a hundred others who dismissed the warnings, who believed democracy had become enshrined in the western world, who thought no one could want war again after WWI, who asserted that outside influences would diminish Hitler's impact, who claimed Hitler was too outlandish for his talk to be believed, who thought he would make obvious missteps and lose power. The lesson is to not underestimate the maniacal and powermad.
These are dark times. We can't just watch on warily. We must oppose the descent into darkness at every turn.
--Percy

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 596 of 892 (795061)
12-05-2016 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by RAZD
12-01-2016 10:08 AM


Re: Election Fraud 2016 -- Michigan
And the recount moves forward in Michigan ...
quote:
A Federal Judge Just Ordered A Recount In A Pivotal Swing State
Early on Monday morning, U.S. District Judge Mark Goldsmith ordered an immediate recount of the election votes in Michigan to begin at noon and for the state to assemble necessary staff to work sufficient hours to complete it by Dec 13th.
Yestarday, Judge Goldsmith held an emergency session with the lawyers of Green Party candidate Jill Stein, who successfully convinced him that following the state law that demands a two business day wait before commencing a recount represented a sufficiently credible threat that the recount, if delayed, would not be completed.
Goldsmith dismissed state Republican Party chairwoman Ronna Romney McDaniel’s concerns over cost, saying that with the perceived integrity of the presidential election as it was conducted in Michigan at stake, concerns with cost pale in comparison.
Donald Trump won Michigan by a mere 10,704 , 2,279,543 to Hillary Clinton’s 2,268,839, as per the Michigan Department of State. The minuscule victory margin is enough that a recount is the only way to ensure the democratic process worked and that Michigan’s sixteen electoral votes deserve to go to Trump.
While the recount isn’t likely to change the outcome of the election, a reversal could convince more Electoral College voters to turn faithless and vote against their state’s decision, potentially saving us from four years of Donald Trump.
That and the fact that Hillary won the popular vote. Even though I do have apprehensions of supporting such Electoral College actions and setting a precedent that could have unforeseen consequences (like "borking" supreme court nominees ... ), I do think the recounts are important to reveal the degree of discrepancies and then investigate to find the causes, so that future elections can be done better.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 597 of 892 (795075)
12-05-2016 11:03 PM


Hmmmmm
Half of Detroit votes may be ineligible for recount
recount-unrecountable
One-third of precincts in Wayne County could be disqualified from an unprecedented statewide recount of presidential election results because of problems with ballots.
Michigan’s largest county voted overwhelmingly for Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton, but officials couldn’t reconcile vote totals for 610 of 1,680 precincts during a countywide canvass of vote results late last month.
Most of those are in heavily Democratic Detroit, where the number of ballots in precinct poll books did not match those of voting machine printout reports in 59 percent of precincts, 392 of 662.
According to state law, precincts whose poll books don’t match with ballots can’t be recounted. If that happens, original election results stand.
It’s not good, conceded Daniel Baxter, elections director for the city of Detroit.
More

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Replies to this message:
 Message 598 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-05-2016 11:53 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 599 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2016 12:21 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 598 of 892 (795077)
12-05-2016 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by Coyote
12-05-2016 11:03 PM


Re: Hmmmmm
quote:
Most of those are in heavily Democratic Detroit, where the number of ballots in precinct poll books did not match those of voting machine printout reports in 59 percent of precincts, 392 of 662.
I'm not sure what this means, but it certainly should be looked into.
I presume that "the number of ballots in precinct poll books" means the election judge records counting the number of ballots given out to voters. This should match the number of ballots in the ballot box (hope they have a paper trail) and the voting machine (counting machine, or was the voting purely electronic?) printout.
As I recall from the source, there is also indications of tampering of the sealed ballot bags, which would seem to indicate tampering with the paper trail.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by Coyote, posted 12-05-2016 11:03 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by Coyote, posted 12-06-2016 12:35 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 599 of 892 (795078)
12-06-2016 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 597 by Coyote
12-05-2016 11:03 PM


Re: Hmmmmm
Let us note that it is being blamed on the voting machines - which apparently require manual adjustments when a ballot is fed in more than once. If the machines were failing to scan ballots there could certainly be multiple insertions, but only a single vote recorded. The article does not indicate a discrepancy in the number of ballots versus recorded votes so we do not have any evidence of cheating at this point. It does say that this problem hurts Clinton's chance in the recount.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by Coyote, posted 12-05-2016 11:03 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 600 of 892 (795079)
12-06-2016 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 598 by Minnemooseus
12-05-2016 11:53 PM


Re: Hmmmmm
I have worked a precinct for eight elections now, and we record a signature for each voter, whether qualified or provisional.
At the end of the night the number of ballots removed from the pads is supposed to equal the number of signatures. These numbers go back to the elections department three ways: with the unused ballots, with the precinct captain's paperwork, and by mail, sent by a precinct worker. The unused ballots are all boxed and wrapped with tape, along with the paperwork mentioned above.
In eight elections, we have only missed being 100% accurate twice, and that by only one or two ballots/signatures.
If there is a significant discrepancy between the number of ballots used and the number of ballots/provisions (each with a signature), then something is wrong. It sounds like that is what happened in Detroit.
In precincts and counties where you have two or more parties, this kind of fraud is more difficult. In one-party precincts and counties, such as Detroit, this kind of fraud can easily take place where a number of extra votes for the candidate of your choice show up.
Perhaps the recount is identifying this kind of fraud. The problem is, if the totals don't match you go with the original count, making the fraudulent results the official ones.
Hmmmmm.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-05-2016 11:53 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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