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Author | Topic: The 2016 United States Presidential Election | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member (Idle past 737 days) Posts: 2236 Joined: |
quote: I thought the "police" policy was to send in border agents to police the border and keep people out. Is Faith saying we should finally get rid of borders? End the forced policing and impositions. I like that. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are actually going to push your ridiculous analogy then?
Leaving parts of your field unharvested so that poor people can glean from them enough to eat is a very specific command to LAND OWNERS. It is illustrated in action in the Book of Ruth where she comes to glean at the edges of the land owned by Boaz, so that she and her mother-in-law Naomi can eat. This is not a general command to provide for your neighbor, it is a command to simply leave something for the poor from your crops. And again it is a direct command to the land owner to act on from his own free will, it is not something we are to force on someone. It's between the land owner and God, and if he commits sin in not doing it God will punish him, there is nothing that says YOU can dictate any of this. In any case, there is absolutely no comparison with a hotel owner. What could he leave of his "land" for others to "glean from?" {abe: Oh, perhaps he could keep a small room in the basement for someone who can't afford a regular room? That is, "gleaning" certainly doesn't imply giving your whole field to the poor.) The command to him would be more along the lines of giving donations from his earnings to the cause of the poor. There is nothing implied that requires him to share his property. That's absurd. The second of the two great commandments, in which are contained "all the law and the prophets," to love God being the first, is to love your neighbor as you love yourself. HOW you are to love your neighbor is actually spelled out in the second table of the Ten Commandments from which this second commandment is abstracted: that is, you love your neighbor by observing the sabbath rest, by honoring "parents," which includes all legitimate authorities, by not stealing, murdering, lying, committing adultery or coveting the possessions of your neighbor. I suggest that all you twisters of the Biblical commands are violating the tenth of the ten commandments by coveting the property of the hotel owner for purposes YOU define. The Bible says no such thing. Loving your neighbor is also spelled out in positive terms in many of the examples given in Leviticus and Deuteronomy as well as in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. NONE of it even remotely implies that you -- let alone the government -- are to forcibly make use of another person's property for ANY reason whatever. Of course the commandments are not voluntary for those to whom they are addressed. But you are trying to force them on people who for all you know already fulfill the commandment according to their means and according to common sense. The hotel owner COULD decide to provide housing for refugees to fulfill the commandment, but he is under absolutely no obligation to do so. He may contribute generously to funds for the poor for all you know, and he probably doesn't steal, murder, lie, commit adultery or covet from his poor neighbors. Or he may not obey the commandment at all and is in sin before God. In any case, YOU have no right to tell him how to respond to God. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Leaving parts of your field unharvested so that poor people can glean from them enough to eat is a very specific command to LAND OWNERS. Yes it was very specific. And it is clear a counter example to your argument that we are not commanded to help our neighbors. That such help is merely voluntary. Perhaps you need more examples? I'll get to that.
HOW you are to love your neighbor is actually spelled out in the second table of the Ten Commandments from which this second commandment is abstracted: that is, you love your neighbor by observing the sabbath rest, by honoring "parents," which includes all legitimate authorities, by not stealing, murdering, lying, committing adultery or coveting the possessions of your neighbor. Jesus describes exactly what he means by love your neighbor throughout the gospel both in direct words and by example. It clearly extends beyond simply not breaking the ten commandments contrary to your suggestion here. Those examples?:
quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: If that is not enough, then perhaps you are not amenable to teaching. Clearly what we are commanded goes far beyond simply not stealing your neighbors ox, or coveting his maidservant. The idea that love and charity is so limited is completely laughable. But now I do fully understand at least one thing that has always puzzled me. Namely why some Christians can embrace selfishness in view of the clear direction from Jesus to do otherwise. I suspect that they read the Bible just as you do; as if Matthew 25 had never been written. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 393 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
NN writes: But now I do fully understand at least one thing that has always puzzled me. Namely why some Christians can embrace selfishness in view of the clear direction from Jesus to do otherwise. I suspect that they read the Bible just as you do; as if Matthew 25 had never been written. An in particular don't seem to realize that ALL of the Goats were followers of Jesus.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I thoroughly answered all your wrongheaded claims. Go read iit again. You are making up pure garbage. I'm talking about making SOMEBODY ELSE obey the commandments
[I removed my intemperate outburst, though your accusations are obnoxious and incendiary. Slandering a fellow believer is certainly not obeying any of Jesus' commands.] I thought of two more things I wanted to say before you made the latest post. One: Ananias and Sapphira who withheld some of the proceeds from the sale of their property from the disciples' fund, lied about it when they didn't have any reason to, since as the disciples said, they had the full right to use their property however they wanted to, to give or withhold whatever amount they chose. Instead they pretended to give it all when they gave only part of it. The point is this idea that the hotel owner had some kind of obligation to provide for the refugees is wrong wrong wrong. And again you have no idea what he may already do to obey the commandment. And you also have no idea whether he himself would suffer severely financially if he did what you self-appointed judges of his conscience want him to do, What a bunch of Pharisees you all are. And the other thing was that Jesus tells us if someone steals our coat to also give them our cloak. He doesn't tell us that we are to make someone else give up their cloak, which is what you all are doing. As usual I'm sorry I got myself trapped into any discussion at EvC Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Admin Director Posts: 12995 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Stop this.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I agree with the commandments given by Jesus. What I don't agree with is the idea that our government should legislate morality on its citizens. I agree fully that the command not to be selfish should be between an individual and God. The government should never interfere in these matters.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Nothing I said "limited "charity. In pointing out that the Shalt Nots of the the Ten Commandments are loving your neighbor I was giving the correct basic understanding that everybody ignores, not limiting anything. I went on to mention the other places in the Bible where the commandment is expanded. Your list is part of it, but how dare you accuse anyone of disobeying it.
No one should seek their own good, but the good of others. Which is certainly expressed in the Shalt Nots. Not LIMITED to them but expressed in them.
:Carry each other’burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. This means fellow believers. But even if it did not, you are free to go to the refugees in their camps and help them in many ways, and many people do that. Everything from food and shelter to sanitation to medical help to necessary supplies. Or, why not go to China where there are lots of suffering people, particularly Christians? Or put in time at the soup kitchen at the mission. These things are up to the individual conscience, including your own; other people's consciences are none of your business.
Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it. Loving one another specifically means brothers and sisters IN CHRIST. The way you attack fellow believers for not living up to YOUR mistaken understanding of the commandments is not loving them. Christians are known for being big givers, NN, stop being a Pharisee.
Anyone who withholds kindness from a friend forsakes the fear of the Almighty. How are the refugees your "friend?" And why do you get to dictate how a person is to be kind to anyone anyway?
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Take it to heart and leave everybody else to take it to heart as they will.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1404 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Wisconsin continues to make the news ... here from "Bipartisan Report"
quote: Scott runs such a model government ... by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Percy Member Posts: 22388 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Thought you would never see a George Orwell line come to life? Think again. This is Trump supporter Scottie Nell Hughes speaking on the Diane Rehm Show:
quote: The most recent example that comes to mind of a Trump "fact" is that he'd been planning the phone call to the Taiwan president for some time. The man doesn't even know what he's going to say five minutes from now, let alone months ahead. And apparently the Trump camp still hasn't given up on arresting those they disagree with. Trump's former campaign manager Corey Lewandowski threatened New York Times executive editor Dean Baquet by declaring "He should be in jail" just for stating that he'd be willing to go to jail to get a copy of Trump's taxes. Which Trump still hasn't released and probably never will. For every man who warned of the true implications of Hitler's rise to power in Germany there were a hundred others who dismissed the warnings, who believed democracy had become enshrined in the western world, who thought no one could want war again after WWI, who asserted that outside influences would diminish Hitler's impact, who claimed Hitler was too outlandish for his talk to be believed, who thought he would make obvious missteps and lose power. The lesson is to not underestimate the maniacal and powermad. These are dark times. We can't just watch on warily. We must oppose the descent into darkness at every turn. --Percy
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1404 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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And the recount moves forward in Michigan ...
quote: That and the fact that Hillary won the popular vote. Even though I do have apprehensions of supporting such Electoral College actions and setting a precedent that could have unforeseen consequences (like "borking" supreme court nominees ... ), I do think the recounts are important to reveal the degree of discrepancies and then investigate to find the causes, so that future elections can be done better. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Half of Detroit votes may be ineligible for recount
recount-unrecountable One-third of precincts in Wayne County could be disqualified from an unprecedented statewide recount of presidential election results because of problems with ballots. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3941 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
quote: I'm not sure what this means, but it certainly should be looked into. I presume that "the number of ballots in precinct poll books" means the election judge records counting the number of ballots given out to voters. This should match the number of ballots in the ballot box (hope they have a paper trail) and the voting machine (counting machine, or was the voting purely electronic?) printout. As I recall from the source, there is also indications of tampering of the sealed ballot bags, which would seem to indicate tampering with the paper trail. Moose
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Let us note that it is being blamed on the voting machines - which apparently require manual adjustments when a ballot is fed in more than once. If the machines were failing to scan ballots there could certainly be multiple insertions, but only a single vote recorded. The article does not indicate a discrepancy in the number of ballots versus recorded votes so we do not have any evidence of cheating at this point. It does say that this problem hurts Clinton's chance in the recount.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I have worked a precinct for eight elections now, and we record a signature for each voter, whether qualified or provisional.
At the end of the night the number of ballots removed from the pads is supposed to equal the number of signatures. These numbers go back to the elections department three ways: with the unused ballots, with the precinct captain's paperwork, and by mail, sent by a precinct worker. The unused ballots are all boxed and wrapped with tape, along with the paperwork mentioned above. In eight elections, we have only missed being 100% accurate twice, and that by only one or two ballots/signatures. If there is a significant discrepancy between the number of ballots used and the number of ballots/provisions (each with a signature), then something is wrong. It sounds like that is what happened in Detroit. In precincts and counties where you have two or more parties, this kind of fraud is more difficult. In one-party precincts and counties, such as Detroit, this kind of fraud can easily take place where a number of extra votes for the candidate of your choice show up. Perhaps the recount is identifying this kind of fraud. The problem is, if the totals don't match you go with the original count, making the fraudulent results the official ones. Hmmmmm.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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