Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,793 Year: 4,050/9,624 Month: 921/974 Week: 248/286 Day: 9/46 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evidence for Evolution: Whale evolution
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1051 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 24 of 443 (647295)
01-09-2012 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by TheArtist
01-07-2012 10:26 AM


If there were any fluent transition between these different versions, it would be difficult to put a name to each of them — if there was a smooth transition between the different species you would have to create bounds to clamp the specie names down. Where do you assume the Mesonychids end and the Pakicetus starts? If such a diagram (evolution in general) were true then animals on earth would just be a hodgepodge of intermediate steps of evolution and you would not be able to distinguish animals from each other. There would not be this is a Panda, that is a Lion or be able to tell where to draw the line between apes and human beings, just more human like or more ape like beings.
Quite right, and that's why this is how things actually are. It really is exceedingly difficult to draw lines between species and decide exactly where one stops and another begins. When enough of the intermediate steps are dead, we're left with two distinct populations and division is easy. Babriusas, for example, are sufficiently different from pigs and peccaries, without the existence of any suriviving, intermediate animals, that we're comfortable classifying them as seperate.
But, then, how many species of babriusa are there. Traditionally, there was only supposed to be one. In 1980, however, a taxonomist took a look at this idea and decided it was a bit too simplistic. The babirusa should be split into four, distinct, sub-species. More recently, he's decided the different babirusas are more different than he previously gave them credit for, and reognised four different species. Other scientists disagree, and think they should be seen as more uniform.
Of course, exactly where you lie on this debate changes depending on what, precisely, you define a species as. As a classic example, Mexico has somewhere between 101 and 249 recognised endemic bird species, depending on which exact definition of species you use.
We can easily distinguish a whale and a hippo, but taxonomy is still filled to the brim with fuzzy boundaries and arguments over where x stops and y begins. It really is difficult to draw lines and classify things.
Edited by caffeine, : broken tags
Edited by caffeine, : bizarre duplication of text

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by TheArtist, posted 01-07-2012 10:26 AM TheArtist has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1051 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(2)
Message 57 of 443 (648121)
01-13-2012 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by herebedragons
01-13-2012 10:08 AM


If Rodhocetus did live only in an enclosed sea, cut off from the Indian Ocean, then modern whales didn't descend from them. They would have died out at some point as their ocean shrunk (or perhaps before, for some unrelated reason).
However, before the gap closed, blocking off the Tethys ocean from the wider seas, there would have been a traversable passage, with either Rodhocetus or similar relatives living on either side of it. The whales we can find fossils of would be those on the inside, since where they died is now above sea level and accessible to palaeontolgists. There were still other whales in the open ocean, however, continuing to adapt to life there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by herebedragons, posted 01-13-2012 10:08 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by herebedragons, posted 01-13-2012 8:55 PM caffeine has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1051 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 249 of 443 (795548)
12-14-2016 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by RAZD
12-14-2016 11:51 AM


Re: This just in ...
Gigantism isn’t necessarily something that only occurred in the last 3 million years or so, says Monash University paleontologist Felix Marx. But what did change, as far as we can tell, is that all of the little ones suddenly start to disappear. You’ve got a whole range of whales that don’t even exist today.
You’ve got all sorts of stuff that’s just a lot smallerlike, three, four, five meters. And about 3 million years ago or so, as far as we can tell, they all disappear.
Is this supposed to be referring only to mysticetes? There are still a lot of three, four, five, metre whales.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2016 11:51 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2016 3:14 PM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1051 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 252 of 443 (795582)
12-14-2016 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by RAZD
12-14-2016 3:14 PM


Re: This just in ...
The impression I got was that the Gigantism" occurred due to the environmental conditions of the later ice ages and that most of the smaller whales went extinct.
Yes, but that's evidently not true, which was why I asked if he was actually talking about mysticetes in particular.
I have answered my own question in the affirmative by finding some of his work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2016 3:14 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1051 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 253 of 443 (795596)
12-14-2016 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by mike the wiz
12-14-2016 2:32 PM


The opening message of this topic highlights a serious problem with artwork. Incredibly people still show pictures of Rhodocetus as a fully formed skeleton with a tail fluke. If you look in the following pictures in this thread, you will see they never found those tail vertebrae for Rhodocetus.
Rodhocetus is pictured without a tail fluke in message 1.
Now, you are right that it can be a bit misleading when someone pictures a full skeleton as a fossil without indication of which bits are actually known from fossils. That's why you sometimes see skeletal reconstructions like this:
with different shading used to differentiate between the bits known from fossils and the rest; which is the educated guess of the reconstructor.
If you're complaining about artists reconstructions of fossils as living animals, then of course they have to include speculative elements. There's nothing dishonest about this - even the most complete fossil is not going to tell you how an animal looked in life. You have to fill in the gaps with speculation and conjecture; or it would not be possible to make any artist's impressions.
Now, I do find it annoying that a lot of media presentation prefers the artist's impressions to pictures of the actual fossils; but that's not a problem with artwork - it's a problem of what the media thinks people would find more alluring.
Incidentally, I'm not sure how relevant the terminal caudal vertebrae would be to whether Rodhocetus has a tail fluke. Whale vertebrae don't extend into the flukes. And Google images seems to suggest that the majority of artists reconstruct Rodhocetus without a fluke.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by mike the wiz, posted 12-14-2016 2:32 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024