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Author Topic:   The philosophy behind The Twelve Steps
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 91 of 104 (706267)
09-09-2013 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Larni
01-29-2009 9:52 AM


Patrick Carnes
Larni, haver you ever heard of dr.Patrick Carnes? He is nationally known as a sex addictions recovery expert, and he makes a valid and timely comment on how the recovery process works.

Currently, I am at day # 71 of a particular addiction(Carnes says that all addiction follow similar basic patterns and that recovery takes time due to the fact that the brain must reset itself and regrow healthier neural pathways...comments? )and according to Carnes I should begin dealing with a flood of unresolved feelings at roughly day 130 or so, and also health issues.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Larni, posted 01-29-2009 9:52 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by frako, posted 09-09-2013 5:52 AM Phat has responded
 Message 93 by Larni, posted 09-09-2013 6:28 PM Phat has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2683
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 92 of 104 (706273)
09-09-2013 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
09-09-2013 3:48 AM


Re: Patrick Carnes
Currently, I am at day # 71 of a particular addiction

Congrats hope you stay the course

(Carnes says that all addiction follow similar basic patterns and that recovery takes time due to the fact that the brain must reset itself and regrow healthier neural pathways...comments? )

Not all addictions cocaine addicts for example have one of the worst problems, when even after years just hearing the word can cause their brains to release endorphins giving you a slight high and craving for the drug.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Click if you dare!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 09-09-2013 3:48 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-10-2013 2:28 AM frako has responded
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 09-26-2016 3:36 AM frako has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3941
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 93 of 104 (706341)
09-09-2013 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
09-09-2013 3:48 AM


Re: Patrick Carnes
I've not heard of him till now but he seems pretty in line with my take on addiction.

Behaviour causes emotion modulation.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 09-09-2013 3:48 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 09-10-2013 2:18 AM Larni has not yet responded
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 10-22-2016 1:14 PM Larni has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 94 of 104 (706359)
09-10-2013 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Larni
09-09-2013 6:28 PM


Emotional Modulation
I had to look this term up (largely so that I could have a conversation with you )
This is what I found:
quote:
Modulation of the highs and lows of emotion seems essential to health.

Emotional modulation means to reduce the intensity of an emotional experience and/or the length of time one experiences a dominant emotion. For example, anger is part of life which we all experience. Yet, if we often go into an uncontrollable rage, we must learn to control such extremes. If we experience anger over a prolonged period of time and become hostile persons susceptible to anger at the drop of a hat we must learn modulation.

The root of the word emotion is motere, the Latin verb "to move" and the prefix "e" to connote "move away." Some believe emotions guide us in facing predicaments and challenges too important to leave to intellect alone. Each emotion offers a distinctive readiness to act. Paul Ekman, of the University of California at San Francisco, says four emotions are recognized by people in cultures around the world:

Anger
Fear
Sadness
Joy


Carnes says that after the 130 day mark, the recovering addict is hit with a flood of emotions...which were previously being suppressed and/or masked by the addiction. Personally, I had five years worth of audio daily reports(Diaries) in which I commented on the feelings and observations of the moment. Before sobriety I noted that I was suppressing emotions and was in a state of denial...knowing that I had to do something about the addiction yet unable to do so in the present moment...(hence the addiction). Later, after sobriety was achieved, I was able to be honest with myself for the first time in a long time. (jar used to comment that I seemed to prefer fantasy over reality...a kernel of truth) At any rate, reality now tells us that I have 72 days sober...and that at roughly day # 130 or so, the emotional tsunami will hit me. I hope to be able to report on it here.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Larni, posted 09-09-2013 6:28 PM Larni has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 95 of 104 (706360)
09-10-2013 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by frako
09-09-2013 5:52 AM


Re: Patrick Carnes
frako writes:

cocaine addicts for example have one of the worst problems, when even after years just hearing the word can cause their brains to release endorphins giving you a slight high and craving for the drug.

Keyword: Slight

Triggers will occur, but there is a difference between feeling a trigger and shifting into the automatic addictive process which one is unable to reverse(kinda like getting too close to a black hole)

The brain will reset itself after 130 days of sobriety, and after that the triggers and emotions will peak...but once a client gets through that, triggers alone will not cause relapses.

Carnes did comment that relapse is more common in the 2nd six months of sobriety than it is in the 1st 6 months...for those who make the initial 130 days.

Edited by Phat, : fixed


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by frako, posted 09-09-2013 5:52 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by frako, posted 09-10-2013 5:14 AM Phat has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2683
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 96 of 104 (706365)
09-10-2013 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-10-2013 2:28 AM


Re: Patrick Carnes
Well i dont have any first hand experience to confirm or deny how slight it is i got that from a documentary on addiction.

The only real addiction i suffer from is smoking and i have no real desire to stop. Though i am building a fitness room should be finished today or tomorrow goto paint the walls and put in a carpet then i can start hauling the equipment in. Maby il fall in to some kind of fitness addiction and il stop smoking but i doubt it. P

But sill i hope you stay the course whatever comes your way and the best of luck to you.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Click if you dare!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-10-2013 2:28 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-26-2016 8:23 PM frako has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 97 of 104 (791890)
09-26-2016 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by frako
09-09-2013 5:52 AM


Re: Patrick Carnes

Ironically I am again at Day 71...same as the longest period of sobriety i ever had in twenty years. (I relapsed soon after that post)

What will be scary is the territory I'm about to experience. I already feel some deep deep pain,fear,depression, and anxiety.
Day 130-Day 180 will be tough, according to experts. (For me that will be the period
November 27th or so thru Christmas and climaxing in January and February 2017.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by frako, posted 09-09-2013 5:52 AM frako has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 98 of 104 (791917)
09-26-2016 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by frako
09-10-2013 5:14 AM


Frako 2013
frako 2013 writes:

Though i am building a fitness room should be finished today or tomorrow go to paint the walls and put in a carpet then i can start hauling the equipment in. Maybe i'll fall in to some kind of fitness addiction and i'll stop smoking but i doubt it.

So did you ever finish that room? Do you use it? Hows the smoking coming along? Just curious...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by frako, posted 09-10-2013 5:14 AM frako has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 99 of 104 (793169)
10-22-2016 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Larni
09-09-2013 6:28 PM


Day 97
concerning emotional regulation, would you agree with the hypothesis that sobriety as a necessary form of emotional (and physical) regulation allows neuro plasticity to change the brain back into a healthy state...thus avoiding built in triggers from having to fire?

This is Day #97 for me.

I am a bit grumpy but overall confidant that I am on the right path.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Larni, posted 09-09-2013 6:28 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Larni, posted 10-22-2016 1:42 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3941
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 100 of 104 (793170)
10-22-2016 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
10-22-2016 1:14 PM


Re: Day 97
I would say so. You can literally build up your will power and any time you show restraint it generalises to restraint in other areas.

Also having a routine that does not involve engaging in addictive behaviour reduces the frequency we ruminate on engaging in addictive behaviour.

It sounds like you are doing really well!

All the best, mate.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 10-22-2016 1:14 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 101 of 104 (794652)
11-18-2016 6:57 PM


Day 124 and a painful response
This is day 124 of sobriety. I just received word from Safeway...m,y former employer...that they have rejected my Step 2 Grievance. This really hurt. I needed that job and the money and insurance that it provided. To be honest, at age 57 I feel I have earned this level of support, and to finally have it taken from me is embarrassing, painful, and normally unfair. The only reason I refuse to call it unfair is because I prayed about this, and trust that Gods will is done.

What I don't understand is why God wants me broke and needy after I have worked so hard to stay sober for the longest time in twenty years!

Yes...I have been looking for other jobs, but there are none that give me what I had. I am going to my CR Group meeting tonight and will get my 120 day chip, which symbolically means a lot---as i know that scientifically i am healing---but I can honestly say that I am hurting right now.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by RAZD, posted 11-18-2016 10:21 PM Phat has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18257
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 102 of 104 (794656)
11-18-2016 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
11-18-2016 6:57 PM


Re: Day 124 and a painful response
Keep strong my friend and face the coming days knowing they will be darkest before the light. There will be a job, and the questions are

what kind of job do you want

and where do you want it to be

you've talked about getting into your church hierarchy, and perhaps this is the time.

keep us posted

<3


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 11-18-2016 6:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 12-23-2016 10:28 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 103 of 104 (796143)
12-23-2016 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by RAZD
11-18-2016 10:21 PM


Day 159--Resolved To Face The Future Sober
Phat,Post 97 writes:

What will be scary is the territory I'm about to experience. I already feel some deep deep pain,fear,depression, and anxiety.
Day 130-Day 180 will be tough, according to experts. (For me that will be the period
November 27th or so thru Christmas and climaxing in January and February 2017.

Phat,Post 101 writes:

This is day 124 of sobriety. I just received word from Safeway...m,y former employer...that they have rejected my Step 2 Grievance. This really hurt. I needed that job and the money and insurance that it provided. To be honest, at age 57 I feel I have earned this level of support, and to finally have it taken from me is embarrassing, painful, and normally unfair. The only reason I refuse to call it unfair is because I prayed about this, and trust that Gods will is done.
What I don't understand is why God wants me broke and needy after I have worked so hard to stay sober for the longest time in twenty years!

Yes...I have been looking for other jobs, but there are none that give me what I had. I am going to my CR Group meeting tonight and will get my 120 day chip, which symbolically means a lot---as i know that scientifically i am healing---but I can honestly say that I am hurting right now.

Today is Day 159 and I got my job back this last week! I am trusting God still...now more than ever...though I still have many questions. I wont say that God made me sober yet I wont take all of the credit for myself either. It was and is an ongoing daily communion. Now that I have my job back fully restored with insurance and benefits, perhaps God wants to test me to see how strong I remain in my sobriety. The feelings and emotional awareness that I have now is stronger than at any time in the past. The experts say that this is a normal process of healing unresolved feelings and emotions that may well have accelerated the addiction in the first place many years ago.

As of today--Friday December 23rd I am resolved..determined...and full of joy. May everyone at EvC have a Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidays with friends and family and a joyful New Year!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by RAZD, posted 11-18-2016 10:21 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by NosyNed, posted 12-23-2016 11:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8752
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 10.0


(1)
Message 104 of 104 (796150)
12-23-2016 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
12-23-2016 10:28 AM


Re: Day 159--Resolved To Face The Future Sober
Congratulations!
I am glad your Christmas is going to be more merry.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 12-23-2016 10:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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