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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 152 of 224 (747586)
01-16-2015 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by ringo
01-16-2015 11:15 AM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Lets try this again.
My belief, of course is that God created all things. In Him is life and that life is the light of men.
Hence, all logic, reason and reality are filtered through Him.
Critics would disagree, saying that God is within my imagination. My belief is that you all are part of His imagination, and thus we go round and round.
The evidence does not validate my claims.
You may say that you are doing just fine without Him.
(You wanna be left alone)
Now that we have all of that cleared up, what shall we discuss next?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 01-16-2015 11:15 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 01-17-2015 2:41 AM Phat has replied
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 01-17-2015 11:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 154 of 224 (747601)
01-17-2015 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Tangle
01-17-2015 2:41 AM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Tangle writes:
Obviously I AM doing just fine without him.
There is only one I AM. The lie would tell you "no there isn't".

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 01-17-2015 2:41 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Tangle, posted 01-17-2015 8:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 156 by Theodoric, posted 01-17-2015 8:50 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 157 of 224 (747605)
01-17-2015 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Theodoric
01-17-2015 8:50 AM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
You know the point I am making.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Theodoric, posted 01-17-2015 8:50 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Asgara, posted 01-17-2015 10:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 161 of 224 (796287)
12-28-2016 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Stile
01-11-2015 9:39 AM


Re: mikey masochist
Stile writes:
However, we do have more information available to us about God that can indicate things to us more.
To me, the most convincing piece of information is that if I were to imagine a universe without God... it would look exactly like the one we're currently living in. As well, if I were to imagine a universe with a benevolent, loving, powerful God.. it would be extremely different from the one we're currently living in. That leads me towards an understanding that God does not exist.
Does this mean that you expect more out of God (Should He exist) than most of us do?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Stile, posted 01-11-2015 9:39 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Stile, posted 12-29-2016 2:14 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 163 of 224 (796403)
12-29-2016 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Stile
12-29-2016 2:14 PM


Re: Omni-God
Think of a little girl getting raped.
In this world, little girls sometimes get raped.
If I had the power to stop such things, I would.
Think of the implications if you became an instant superhero. What would be your responsibility to society?
Why would society force you to be responsible for everything you could prevent?
Should society have such power over an individual?
Why is God reduced to the status of just another individual? Is it fair for the creation to direct the Creator?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Stile, posted 12-29-2016 2:14 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Stile, posted 12-29-2016 3:50 PM Phat has replied
 Message 166 by ringo, posted 12-30-2016 11:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 165 of 224 (796453)
12-30-2016 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Stile
12-29-2016 3:50 PM


Re: Omni-God
Not because it was my responsibility, but because I'm benevolent, loving and powerful enough to do so.
Think of the implications, though. Assuming God could and would alter every event that was hurting someone...think of the implications of doing that. How would reality play out?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Stile, posted 12-29-2016 3:50 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Stile, posted 12-30-2016 12:21 PM Phat has replied
 Message 177 by frako, posted 01-02-2017 3:15 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 168 of 224 (796530)
12-30-2016 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Stile
12-30-2016 12:21 PM


Re: Omni-God
Think harder. IF God not only actively prevented each and every human from getting hurt but additionally prevented every possible accident from happening. How would this be possible? What power would God use? How would it affect everyday life and free will?
Therefore, God is not aware enough, benevolent enough, loving enough or powerful enough.
Not necessarily. The issue is that we dont understand what the power means or what it would change about our lives as a species. A human cannot simply put themselves "in Gods place" and understand the responsibilities of the Deity as defined by fallible humans. Our minds simply cannot compute the result.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Stile, posted 12-30-2016 12:21 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 12-30-2016 8:17 PM Phat has replied
 Message 173 by Stile, posted 01-02-2017 9:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 170 of 224 (796538)
12-30-2016 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by jar
12-30-2016 8:17 PM


Re: Omni-God
And yet you yourself have said that GOD is unknowable. Just because we know the difference between good and evil does not mean we have the perspective of GOD.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 12-30-2016 8:17 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 179 of 224 (796660)
01-02-2017 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Tangle
01-02-2017 4:10 PM


Re: Omni-God
My argument is that though God by definition would be fully capable of micromanaging everything, to interfere would disrupt the original plan.
After all, if God were going to interfere, why not start with Satan? Stop the evil at its source.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Tangle, posted 01-02-2017 4:10 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Tangle, posted 01-02-2017 6:14 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 181 by Riggamortis, posted 01-02-2017 7:04 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 184 by Stile, posted 01-03-2017 9:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 189 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-07-2017 10:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 187 of 224 (796897)
01-07-2017 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
01-05-2017 10:44 AM


Re: Omni-God
It would depress me to be an atheist. I can't imagine there being no God...He is the only one I can count on who will never let me down. I suppose from your perspective you are more concerned with not letting others down...and I can respect that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 01-05-2017 10:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2017 9:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 01-07-2017 10:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 191 of 224 (796980)
01-09-2017 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by ringo
01-07-2017 10:45 AM


Re: Omni-God
Whats your point? Say you could talk to God. What would your needs be?
How Great is Our God
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 01-07-2017 10:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 01-09-2017 10:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 193 of 224 (796993)
01-09-2017 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by ringo
01-09-2017 10:45 AM


Re: Omni-God
the future looks bleak though. WE struggle. We die. We cease to exist. what hope is there, in your scenario? I certainly dont see humanity moving onward and upward.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 01-09-2017 10:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by ringo, posted 01-09-2017 11:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 195 by Tangle, posted 01-09-2017 11:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 198 of 224 (797002)
01-09-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by jar
01-09-2017 12:00 PM


Do we need Odin? Do we need jar?
Just because humans can make up whatever gods they like does not mean that there is not an actual God apart from it all.
Humans can and do invent gods on a daily basis. Alcohol becomes an object of worship for some. Porn for others. And yes....human intelligence itself.
At least Diomedes has a sense of humor about it all....
I know that your argument is that everyone invents their own idea of God.
Hence I will declare that we do need jar to be our thorn in the flesh, always challenging us to question our cherished answers!
Edited by Phat, : edited to reflect evolving argument

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by jar, posted 01-09-2017 12:00 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 199 of 224 (797125)
01-12-2017 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Stile
09-26-2012 11:34 AM


Re: Making Sense
phat writes:
The issue of control also comes up, and apologists often mention that one hallmark characteristic of many atheists/agnostics is the insistence upon having a freely chosen life free from the control of any deity or organized religious influence.
stile writes:
Very understandable.
And we're just two different people. See how different our feelings and needs are? How different do you think all the feelings and needs are for an entire country? How about 7 billion different people?
Maybe the only NEED is for there to be more than one answer...
Or perhaps no answers at all. Fundamentalists would insist there is only one answer and that His name is Jesus. The argument then centers on the idea of God(the One who actually is, not one of jars list of deities that people made up) becoming human so that humans could know Him.
stile writes:
I don't think you should throw away any of your beliefs, I think they are extremely valid simply because they are important to you. I just want to suggest that other people's beliefs (or lack of beliefs) are equally valid simply because they are important to them.
OK, I'll go with that.
Stile writes:
So, do you still think WE need God?
Or do you think that maybe only PHAT needs God?
If you still think WE need God, do you have any specific example or situation you can describe that would show a difference that would require everyone involved to NEED God?
The only scenario I could imagine would be if a major global event wiped out many of the false objects of security we cling to, like money or basic infrastructure. I certainly would not want some global credit card stamped on my hand! At that point I would see that humanity had again blown the opportunity to lead itself forward...and would argue that we all needed God at that point. More to the point, I would argue that we all needed common unity.
By the way, jar does have a point in that I desire a God that helps me and not an indifferent one. I cannot imagine a world set up with common unity amongst the people excluding a need for God. In fact, I believe that this explains the tower of Babel story in Genesis 11. The people wanted to make a name for themselves...and wrote God out of the collective script.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Stile, posted 09-26-2012 11:34 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Stile, posted 01-12-2017 9:37 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 201 of 224 (797164)
01-13-2017 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Stile
01-12-2017 9:37 AM


Re: Common Unity
This discussion has expanded. It is also included at What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Right now I'm focusing on evidence as a necessary prerequisite to belief vs belief itself as a portal to spiritual contentment.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Stile, posted 01-12-2017 9:37 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
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