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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 20 of 224 (673541)
09-20-2012 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Genologist
09-19-2012 5:08 PM


Re: God, by definition
Genologist writes:
You can go through this life "apparently" quite fine as an atheist, I don't even think you need God to fulfill certain goals, indeed there are several examples of atheists who on the surface acheive a lot, Christians believe that "they that build the house without the Lord labour in vain" (Psalm 127:1), we have all done stuff in vain when we do not include God in our plans.- The truth for a Christian is that to each (everybody, even athiests) is given a measure of faith. It is what we do with that faith that counts. Faith is like a muscle with the genetic potential to grow really big, we must "exercise" it ie sincerely and persistently seek after the truth with an open heart. Conversely if we don't our spirits will remain dormant and in a state of "atrophy". So in short you don't strictly need God in this life, but you may never achieve fulfilment or your real purpose, therefore you are always empty, always wanting. Of course atheists will hotly dispute this so your question is loaded .
Despite apologising in another thread for the calumny of suggesting that we atheists do moral things only for selfish reasons, you now write this rubbish telling me that I'm spiritually "empty, always wanting"; that my spirit is in a state of atrophy and that my achievements are superficial.
You sir, are an offensive bigot, hiding your prejudice behind what you call a faith but what real Christians wouldn't recognise as such.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Genologist, posted 09-19-2012 5:08 PM Genologist has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 153 of 224 (747595)
01-17-2015 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
01-16-2015 5:50 PM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Phat writes:
Lets try this again.
My belief, of course is that God created all things.
No he didn't
In Him is life and that life is the light of men.
No it's not
Hence, all logic, reason and reality are filtered through Him.
No it's not
Critics would disagree, saying that God is within my imagination. My belief is that you all are part of His imagination, and thus we go round and round.
Well yes, of course. That's because we all know what you believe because you keep telling us. We only go round and round because...
The evidence does not validate my claims.
....and
You may say that you are doing just fine without Him.
Obviously I AM doing just fine without him.
(You wanna be left alone)
We are left alone.
Now that we have all of that cleared up, what shall we discuss next?
Something that is not just you telling us what you believe without a scrap of evidence and that can't be adequately countered with the statement "no it's not".
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 01-16-2015 5:50 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 8:21 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 155 of 224 (747603)
01-17-2015 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Phat
01-17-2015 8:21 AM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Phat writes:
There is only one I AM. The lie would tell you "no there isn't".
If I could work out what that meant, I'm pretty sure I could just say 'no there isn't'. But As I can't.....

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 8:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 178 of 224 (796657)
01-02-2017 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by NoNukes
01-02-2017 2:19 PM


Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:
Because being omnipotent does not necessarily mean you can be in two places at once?
Ah, the lessor god. Very human.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2017 2:19 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 01-02-2017 4:32 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 182 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2017 8:57 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 180 of 224 (796666)
01-02-2017 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Phat
01-02-2017 4:32 PM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:
My argument is that though God by definition would be fully capable of micromanaging everything, to interfere would disrupt the original plan.
What plan? If this is a plan, I'm a goldfish.
After all, if God were going to interfere, why not start with Satan? Stop the evil at its source.
Well - going with the childish fiction here - why not?
What do you think this god of yours is doing with us Phat? Is he just having a laugh, experimenting, what? Is he playing with us? Are we his pets? Why would a god do what he's done here? Does it make any sense to you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 01-02-2017 4:32 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 183 of 224 (796681)
01-03-2017 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by NoNukes
01-02-2017 8:57 PM


Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:
Not exactly. There is a popular, but not Biblical supportable view of what God's power is.
There are as many views of what a fictional god's power is as there are people prepared to speak of it. You can fabricate any scenario to suit any belief sytem can't you?
It is the cartoon view of God that leads to questions such as "Can God make a rock so big he cannot lift it".
Well if god can do anything, he can enjoy word games too I guess.
On the other hand, the Bible says some specific things about the nature of Gods power.
I'm sure it does. But what the masses are taught is that god is all powerful and everywhere. And if you're going to worship a god, that seems the sort of god you're going to invent.
But hey, have your fun.
Ok.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2017 8:57 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 188 of 224 (796904)
01-07-2017 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
01-07-2017 8:31 AM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:
It would depress me to be an atheist.
I found it totally liberating. A huge weight lifted, all that biblical bollox gone. No all-seeing sky-daddy waiting to catch you out. All that wasted time....
I can't imagine there being no God...He is the only one I can count on who will never let me down.
Given the state you've been in for years, economically and mentally, he's doing a piss-poor job of 'never letting you down'. For god's sake man, kick away the crutch, it's giving you a terrible limp.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 01-07-2017 8:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 195 of 224 (796997)
01-09-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
01-09-2017 10:59 AM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:
the future looks bleak though. WE struggle. We die. We cease to exist.
Correct. That's the system that your god set up for us. Lovely guy huh? This is the system that religion can not explain but biology can. This is why your god had to be invented, we think we are more important than a bacteria a pot plant and a chimp. Biology tells us that we're not.
quote:
what hope is there, in your scenario? I certainly dont see humanity moving onward and upward.
Hope for what? Life is what it is, we can cherish it for what it is while we have it and try to make our time here worthwhile or we can sink into a slough of despond and moan about it. The fanciful belief in imaginary after-lives so long as you worship the correct superstition is luckily fading. The sooner we drop this baloney the sooner we can start making lives better for everyone in the short time that they're here.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 01-09-2017 10:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 203 of 224 (797170)
01-13-2017 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by NoNukes
01-13-2017 1:23 PM


Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:
Well, guess what. It is literally impossible to create a star that can last forever.
That's not what people are taught by religions about their God is it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2017 1:23 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 3:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 205 of 224 (797182)
01-13-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by jar
01-13-2017 3:04 PM


Re: Omni-God
Jar writes:
That depends on who is doing the teaching. There are some really bad teachers out there particularly when it comes to stuff like religion.
There are bad teachers, probably mostly bad teachers as people are free to make up what they like about religious belief and do it regularly.
But god being everywhere and able to do anything is universally taught by Christianity. It's fundamental. Anything less is this very modern idea of a 'lessor god' which is a necessary reaction by intelligent believers to scientific discovery. It just demonstrates the elasticity of belief. Ironically, it evolves.
But even so, omnipotence etc is still what the vast majoty of proles are taught and believe.
Possibly for another thread but it shocked me that at university I shared a flat with a theology student and she explained how very few of the traditional beliefs taught to the proles are actually shared by those that teach them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 3:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 5:54 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 207 of 224 (797188)
01-13-2017 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by jar
01-13-2017 5:54 PM


Re: Omni-God
Jar writes:
But that is simply not correct. If you read the Bible stories themselves you find that the Gods depicted in those stories are not everywhere and able to do anything.
What? You think there's some connection between what the major Christian religions teach the unwashed and what might be written at any point in the bible? Come on. Omnipresence, omnipotence and pretty much omnieverything is the definition of a proper god.
What you claim is universally taught by Christianity is simply not the case.
Well i beg to differ.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 5:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 6:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 209 of 224 (797192)
01-14-2017 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by jar
01-13-2017 6:19 PM


Re: Omni-God
Jar writes:
No, I am saying that Christian education is not a monolithic entity. I am the product of a Christian education in Christian schools that is part of a major Christian denomination where it was pointed out that that according to the Bible stories themselves the authors believed that God was not omnipresence, omnipotence and pretty much omnieverything.
Well, I can't speak for every Christian everywhere - they make up the most bizarre things, hence the tens of thousands of sects - but I'm prepared to bet that the vasy majority believe in and were taught the omni-god. The one that’s all powerful, can do anything and is everywhere simultaneously, watching and listening in.
quote:
Attributes of God in Christianity
Omnipotence
The omnipotence of God refers to him being "all powerful". This is often conveyed with the phrase "Almighty", as in the Old Testament title "God Almighty" (the conventional translation of the Hebrew title El Shaddai) and the title "God the Father Almighty" in the Apostles' Creed.
Jesus says in Matthew 19:26, "with God all things are possible". C. S. Lewis clarifies this concept: "His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power."[37]
Omnipresence
The omnipresence of God refers to him being present everywhere. Berkhof distinguishes between God's immensity and his omnipresence, saying that the former "points to the fact that God transcends all space and is not subject to its limitations," emphasising his transcendence, while the latter denotes that God "fills every part of space with His entire Being," emphasising his immanence.[38] In Psalm 139, David says, "If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there" (Psalm 139:8, NIV).
Omniscience
The omniscience of God refers to him being "all knowing". Berkhof regards the wisdom of God as a "particular aspect of his knowledge."[39] Romans 16:27 speaks about the "only wise God".
Attributes of God in Christianity - Wikipedia

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 6:19 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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