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Author Topic:   The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 104 of 267 (794733)
11-22-2016 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
11-22-2016 12:04 PM


Re: Courtroom of Logic Reason and Reality
Jar writes:
Sorry but that makes no sense that I can fathom.
Phat seems to be inside his own skull inceasingly lately. I have no idea what he's trying to say either - it seems to be mostly pulpit gibberish.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 11-22-2016 12:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 11-23-2016 8:19 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 165 of 267 (796382)
12-29-2016 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
12-29-2016 11:48 AM


Re: Works vs Grace
Phat writes:
The lie is the idea that humans dont need God and that we are simply expected to embrace this world the way we have created it...but our entire system is as vacuous as the Tower Of Babel
I don't need your god so how can it be a lie?
This is just simple logic, you think all swans are white, well I've just flown in and I'm a black.
I also don't accept that our systems are vacuous, they're what make us civilised. Your god apparently created the world as a kill or be killed, survival of the fittest, eat anything you can catch environment - we had to create our systems in order to be better than that. Your god is utterly hopeless. What we have, we created ourselves.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 12-29-2016 11:48 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 183 of 267 (796696)
01-03-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Phat
01-03-2017 8:55 AM


Re: Abide In Me
Phat writes:
He wants to be in communion. He has means. And He has opportunity.
And yet he never does. Weird huh? It's almost as if he doesn't exist.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 01-03-2017 8:55 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 01-03-2017 11:18 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 185 of 267 (796705)
01-03-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Faith
01-03-2017 11:18 AM


Re: Abide In Me
Faith writes:
But hasn't Phat been saying that he is in communion with God?
He says he thinks that he is but when quizzed admits to not being able to explain what, when, how or why.
I've asked for clarifiaction on this point from everyone who claims to 'be in communication' with god. All I ever get is woo. If you or he would like to clarify, I'm all ears.
Just because you aren't doesn't prove others can't be.
Well it's a good indication isn't it? Why you and not me? Am I not worth saving? (Please don't give me that bollox about needing to believe before you can believe - that's just more evidence of delusion.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 01-03-2017 11:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 01-03-2017 1:30 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 01-04-2017 3:31 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 188 of 267 (796709)
01-03-2017 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Faith
01-03-2017 1:30 PM


Re: Abide In Me
Faith writes:
I hesitate to mention such things at all, and maybe I'll regret it.
Well thank you for taking the risk. But like I said, all I ever get is woo - signs and omens, coincidences and spookiness. Never what people say they do, which is communicate. Two way normal communication. Not ouija board stuff.
I had lots more similar experiences that piled up relevant Bible passages in answer to a problem or question I had. The point here is that I didn't have these experiences before I was a believer. To my mind such experiences can't be dismissed, but if anyone can find a way I'm sure you can.
They can be dismissed extremly easily as coincidence and confirmation bias. It will never happen to me because I'm never going to be sat in a draft reading the bible. The mere fact that you're reading the bible is enough to tell any objective observer that you're simply selecting what is significant to you. It's a well studied area Faith.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 01-03-2017 1:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 01-03-2017 2:02 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 191 of 267 (796722)
01-03-2017 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Faith
01-03-2017 2:02 PM


Re: Abide In Me
Faith writes:
You have to be able to tell the difference between genuine evidence and your own made-up prejudice.
I'm pretty good at that Faith. But so far you haven't produced any evidence at all. Just silly stuff. There's no conversation here - just, well, woo.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 01-03-2017 2:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 01-03-2017 8:10 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 194 of 267 (796763)
01-04-2017 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Faith
01-03-2017 8:10 PM


Re: Abide In Me
Faith writes:
n order to reduce what I said to mere "woo" you have to assume I'm lying or somehow fudged the facts. OR you just didn't really think about what I said? Anyway, what I described is really good evidence of communication from God.
All you've said Faith is that you read something in the bible. Nothing else.
The question was about communication. I said that when people say they communicate with god and I ask them for details, they only have instances like your 'breeze turning pages'. This is not communication, at the very best it's circumstantial, but actually it's just superstition and confirmation bias.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 01-03-2017 8:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 01-04-2017 11:16 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 198 of 267 (796773)
01-04-2017 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
01-04-2017 11:16 AM


Re: Abide In Me
Faith writes:
In other words I was lying about how what I read was brought to my attention? And its remarkable relevance to my state of mind is what, something I made up?
Oh don't be such a martyr. I neither said nor implied that you are lying only that what you say happened didn't amount to anything even resembling communication from god. I'm not doubting what you said.
It could only be that if it didn't happen as I described it happening, or if there are other explanations of what happened, or if I fudged the facts. Of course the breeze isn't the communication, it's what it brought to my attention that is the communication.
There was no communication at all, you just read some parts of the bible that resonated with you. You could do that rightaway now, try it. Communication requires some, well, communicatin.
But there is no point in trying to prove anything to someone whose mind is so closed. I can only hope the stories weren't wasted on others who might be able to benefit from them. I went for years under the usual atheistic delusions that might have been dispelled by some believable supernatural accounts.
There was absolutely nothing in your stories that amounts to communication. That you were convinced I have no doubt, but that's hardy evidence.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 01-04-2017 11:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 01-04-2017 12:31 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 200 of 267 (796778)
01-04-2017 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Faith
01-04-2017 12:31 PM


Re: Abide In Me
Faith writes:
I just think there is no other way you could reasonably conclude that what I described is not communication from God.
Then you need to re-read what I said and try to do it without adding your own persecuted interpretation.
Again, I accept the facts of what you say; but I say that they amount to nothing more than confirmation bias. They can not - in any way at all - be described as communication.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 01-04-2017 12:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 01-04-2017 2:00 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 202 of 267 (796784)
01-04-2017 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Faith
01-04-2017 2:00 PM


Re: Abide In Me
If you say so Faith.
But you might consider how different the conversation we've just had is to the 'conversation' you say you had with god.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 01-04-2017 2:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 221 of 267 (796939)
01-08-2017 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
01-08-2017 6:33 AM


Re: False Idols
Sheesh indeed. Why are right wing, religious fundamentalists so, well, wrong?
5. Genocide after genocide after genocide.
In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan. In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites — men, women, children, infants, and their cattle — for something the Amalekites’ ancestors had done 400 years earlier.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 01-08-2017 6:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 01-08-2017 6:42 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 223 of 267 (796942)
01-08-2017 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
01-08-2017 6:42 AM


Re: False Idols
We know that you say that when there's a problem in the bible, it's not the bible that's wrong, it's our reading of it, but you know, repeted genocide is pretty hard to misinterpret.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 01-08-2017 6:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Faith, posted 01-08-2017 3:24 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 250 of 267 (797154)
01-13-2017 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by GDR
01-12-2017 12:59 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
GDR writes:
What evidence would that be?
Well there's plenty of it out there if you look. If Christians actually lived their lives the way Jesus commanded them to, you expect to see an enormous difference in attitude and actions between a godless heathen like me and a pious prayer machine like you. But in fact, apart from the obviously religious rituals you undertake and I don't, I'd expect there to be little, in any difference in our moral behaviour. And this is what we find.
quote:
Researchers asked 1,252 adults of different religious and political backgrounds in the United States and Canada to record the good and bad deeds they committed, witnessed, learned about or were the target of throughout the day.
The goal of the study was to assess how morality plays out in everyday life for different people, said Dan Wisneski, a professor of psychology at Saint Peter's University in Jersey City, New Jersey, who helped conduct the study during his tenure at the University of Illinois at Chicago. [8 Ways Religion Impacts Your Life]
The study's findings may come as a shock to those who think religious or political affiliationhelps dictate a person's understanding of right and wrong.
Wisneski and his fellow researchers found that religious and nonreligious people commit similar numbers of moral acts. The same was found to be true for people on both ends of the political spectrum. And regardless of their political or religious leanings, participants were all found to be more likely to report committing, or being the target of, a moral act rather than an immoral act. They were also much more likely to report having heard about immoral acts rather than moral acts.
Religion Doesn't Make People More Moral, Study Finds | Live Science
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by GDR, posted 01-12-2017 12:59 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 253 of 267 (797166)
01-13-2017 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Phat
01-13-2017 12:51 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
Phat writes:
This brings up our ongoing argument about whether behavior counts or whether belief and trust count more.
Not really, I was anwering the question about whether Christians are different to other people. On average, they're no better, no worse. Which shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone really.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 01-13-2017 12:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 01-13-2017 1:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 255 of 267 (797171)
01-13-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
01-13-2017 1:08 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
Phat writes:
And my point was that the only discernable difference is in the area of belief and trust. Which may mean nothing to someone who believes that God does not exist.
Yes, as we can't see any difference between a believer and a non-believer's behaviours then the only difference is the beliefs themselves.
I really recommend spending some time in a mental hospital if you want to see how what goes on in someone's mind can be totally imaginary, regardless of what the person themselves believe. I've personally met 4 Jesus Christs and one (white) Nelson Mandela. You are deluded, it's just a much more common and minor kind of delusion.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 01-13-2017 1:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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