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Author | Topic: The God That Paul Marketed Over Time. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There is no confusion since they are the exact same thing.
AbE: It really is simple. Judaism and Islam and Christianity are simply a thousand or so entirely different religions worshiping the same entity. Edited by jar, : see AbE:
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: It isn't about the name, it is about the true nature of God, and of course what that should mean to us as individuals or as a species. I keep wondering how anyone could confuse God with Allah. An extreme failure to read in context. But why? I don't get it. In the case of Islam they revere the Koran and discern Allah's nature from that. Within the Koran Allah is depicted as a deity desiring peace and love. However it also depicts the deity as one who is violent and war like. In the case of Christianity we revere the Bible and discern God's nature from that. Within the Bible God is depicted as a deity desiring peace and love. However it also depicts the deity as one who is violent and war like. In either faith we can understand our deity as one who desires us to build peaceful bonds with our neighbours, and even our enemies, or, that we should slaughter them. Both positions can be held by understanding the holy books as being inerrant. In actuality, in all faiths it so often becomes about trying to control God to further our own purposes whether it is to get a new car, destroy enemies, give us power or to allow us to live forever in comfort. It isn't a great analogy but we really should be asking not what God can do for us but what we can do to serve God. Interestingly, and maybe tellingly enough the Koran starts off with a more peaceable deity and it seems as Mohammed gains political influence and power, he becomes increasingly more war like. In the Bible it generally starts with a more war like deity and climaxes in a deity that is peace loving, as we see His nature being perfectly embodied in Jesus. In the case of Christianity we have to discern the message that God wants to convey when we read the BIble. In your case you understand that it is to be read exactly as written so that when Yahweh demands genocide or public stonings you take that as being fact, and justify it by saying that it is God's perfect justice that goes beyond human understanding. (I find that odd. If we our made in God's image then justice is something that we should have a reasonable grasp of.) I however understand God as saying to us that genocide and public stoning is evil, and that those who either prophesied these actions or carried them out were wrong in doing so. In order to make the point we have Jesus. To understand what is of God in the Bible I use the lens of the incarnate Word of God, which is Jesus. As I said earlier, God's Word or Wisdom was embodied in a man, not in a book, or a collection of writings to be more exact. The point is though that when you read some parts of the OT, you can find a theology that supports essentially the same theology followed by ISIS. Enemies are to be slaughtered and apostates put to death cruelly. It is government by fear as opposed to the Christ centred model of government by love. I know that your experiences lead you to understand that God is a God of love, but your theology actually contradicts your beliefs. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Ah well. All I can really do is repeat that it's beyond me to understand how anyone can equate God with Allah in any way whatever.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It isn't about the name, it is about the true nature of God, and of course what that should mean to us as individuals or as a species. In the case of Islam they revere the Koran and discern Allah's nature from that. Within the Koran Allah is depicted as a deity desiring peace and love. However it also depicts the deity as one who is violent and war like. There are a huge number of passages in the Koran, over a hundred if I'm not misremembering, that specifically directly order the reader to kill unbelievers. What sort of "peace and love" does this satanic entity actually promote in light of that?
In the case of Christianity we revere the Bible and discern God's nature from that. Within the Bible God is depicted as a deity desiring peace and love. However it also depicts the deity as one who is violent and war like. No, He is a God of Law and Justice who punishes violations of the Moral Law. And the Bible teaches about the Moral Law so we'll know what is expected of us, and teaches about what punishments each sin deserves so we can't be taken by surprise by that either. And after making it clear that sin deservies severe punishment, God sends us a Savior to spare us its exacting terms. Allah has no excuse for His violence except that he won't tolerate infidels and he offers no salvation except conversion to Islam and "good works" like killing infidels, and his idea of heaven is carnal pleasure. Yech, blech, gag.
In either faith we can understand our deity as one who desires us to build peaceful bonds with our neighbours, and even our enemies, or, that we should slaughter them. Absolute total flaming BS. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that tells us to slaughter anybody. Ever. The OT gives historical REPORTS on how God deals with violations of the Law "in the fullness of time." It also shows Him warning people through His prophets of judgment coming, even warning the pagan city of Nineveh besides His years and years of warnings to His own people. A REPORT IS NOT A COMMAND. Allah issues commande to commit murder of innocent people. THERE IS NO COMPARISON. Blech, gag.
Both positions can be held by understanding the holy books as being inerrant. Utter flaming inability to read in context. Unbelievable.
In actuality, in all faiths it so often becomes about trying to control God to further our own purposes whether it is to get a new car, destroy enemies, give us power or to allow us to live forever in comfort. What the---?? !!!! I have never, not once, prayed even remotely along such lines. Never. Read the Lord's Prayer. It leads us to pray that God's name be holy to us, that His will be done, not ours, that His kingdom come, and end the evils of this world, that He forgive us and prompt us to forgive, that He take care of our basic needs, you know, food and shelter and so on, not cars and comfort, although I suppose it wouldn't be amiss to ask for a humble car in dire need -- and not to destroy our enemies either. Where do you get such a notion? Not to lead us into temptation, to deliver us from evil and from Satan.
It isn't a great analogy but we really should be asking not what God can do for us but what we can do to serve God. I often ask Him what He wants me to do, as I believe most Christians do. But there is nothing wrong with asking Him to take care of our needs and that is a line in the Lord's Prayer too. In fact there's something of pride and willfulness and holier-than-thouness in the idea we don't need to humble ourselves to asking for things we need. It also helps develop gratitude to ask and receive.
Interestingly, and maybe tellingly enough the Koran starts off with a more peaceable deity and it seems as Mohammed gains political influence and power, he becomes increasingly more war like. In the Bible it generally starts with a more war like deity and climaxes in a deity that is peace loving, as we see His nature being perfectly embodied in Jesus. You understand NOTHING. Nothing.
In the case of Christianity we have to discern the message that God wants to convey when we read the BIble. In your case you understand that it is to be read exactly as written so that when Yahweh demands genocide or public stonings you take that as being fact, and justify it by saying that it is God's perfect justice that goes beyond human understanding. (I find that odd. If we our made in God's image then justice is something that we should have a reasonable grasp of.) It is hard to wrap our minds around the need to annihilate an entire tribe of people. I don't claim to understand that. I can guess at it: whatever the sins of the tribe even the babies are contaminated with it, and saving the animals could just be an excuse to adopt the sinful practices of the tribe by keeping them in memory. I've seen similar explanations but how could we know for sure? And I don't expect to be fully conformed to the image of Christ in this life either, as scripture says we won't. We were MADE, CREATED, in the image of God, but that image was distorted at the Fall and won't be fully recovered in this life.
I however understand God as saying to us that genocide and public stoning is evil, and that those who either prophesied these actions or carried them out were wrong in doing so. In other words you prefer your own imagination to what God actually says.
In order to make the point we have Jesus. Jesus IS God. He is of the same substance as God. So say the Creeds.
To understand what is of God in the Bible I use the lens of the incarnate Word of God, which is Jesus. And you pat yourself on the back for it too. If you decide that any part of the Bible is false, there is no way to claim that any other part is true. You pull the rug out from under your own silly buffet-style religion.
As I said earlier, God's Word or Wisdom was embodied in a man, not in a book, or a collection of writings to be more exact. It's embodied in BOTH.
The point is though that when you read some parts of the OT, you can find a theology that supports essentially the same theology followed by ISIS. Utter absolute blithering evil nonsense. NOBODY in the Bible goes around blowing people up, NOBODY goes around killing people at random. THAT'S SHEER EVIL, commanded by the devil-god Allah. You are mentally deranged on this point. They aren't killing "enemies" either. Just random human beings who don't share their beliefs.
Enemies are to be slaughtered and apostates put to death cruelly. It is government by fear as opposed to the Christ centred model of government by love. You talk just like the devil himself, lies lies lies, no sense whatever of the context of God's acts.
I know that your experiences lead you to understand that God is a God of love, but your theology actually contradicts your beliefs. My theology is consistent with my experiences and beliefs and with all the hundreds of theologians I've learned from. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I keep wondering how anyone could confuse God with Allah. Muslims worship the God that created Adam and Eve from clay who were cast from Paradise after a temptation to eat forbidden fruit from Satan, who spoke to Abraham, who flooded the world but save Noah, who guided Moses through the wilderness, who made a covenant with Israelites and gave them the Law; denouncing worshippers of idols such as statues of cattle, the God who is written about in the Old Testament and who approves of the message of Jesus, who has the angels Gabriel and Michael. The God of history who is full of mercy and compassion and exorts his followers to kindness, compassion and charity while warning of the dangers of hell for those who indulge in sin. 'the Lord', 'God', the 'Master of the Day of Judgment.' If you are thinking of a different God, then it's probably a different one than Paul marketed over time.
quote: Of course, you think they are wrong about some things - otherwise you'd be a Muslim. But then you think the Jews and Unitarians and Catholics are wrong too. People can be wrong about humans too. I bet you think the 'leftists' are wrong about certain facts regarding Trump - but it would be absurd to think that a 'leftist' and a 'rightist' are talking about different people just because they think they portray the history or character differently.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I know that these things are spiritually discerned so I suppose I can't really fault anybody for having such utterly wacko ideas, but I do keep having this optimistic idea that even unbelievers ought to be able to think logically and rationally despite being shown over and over how wrong I am about that.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
There are a huge number of passages in the Koran, over a hundred if I'm not misremembering, that specifically directly order the reader to kill unbelievers. What sort of "peace and love" does this satanic entity actually promote in light of that? quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: No, He is a God of Law and Justice who punishes violations of the Moral Law. Just like Allah.
Allah has no excuse for His violence except that he won't tolerate infidels and he offers no salvation except conversion to Islam Same with Yahweh, then.
and his idea of heaven is carnal pleasure Not isn't.
quote:
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Context, context.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Context, context. Exactly. When looked at in context, Allah requests much the same murder and mayhem as Yahweh does for the same kinds of reasons and requires staying of the hand and mercy in much the same conditions. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I said there are direct commands to the individual Muslim reader of the Koran to murder infidels at will.
What you are quoting are God's commands to the Israelites about the right punishments for violation of the Law which are spelled out in great detail in the OT books of the Law. Laws given to the nation of Israel, to be executed by the nation of Israel on ITS OWN PEOPLE. THERE IS NO COMPARISON. Sheesh. Why are Leftists such wackos? Oh and a "garden" is also a carnal image, as in earthly pleasures. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Sheesh indeed. Why are right wing, religious fundamentalists so, well, wrong?
5. Genocide after genocide after genocide. In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan. In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites — men, women, children, infants, and their cattle — for something the Amalekites’ ancestors had done 400 years earlier. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
This has already been discussed to death. Genocide is murder, God condemns murder, God does not commit murder. God executes justice (the death penalty is not murder, contrary to the views of the logic-challenged bleeding hearts who love criminals and hate victims). Yes sometimes using His own ancient people for the job, sometimes using a foreign nation to judge His own people. This answers nothing I just wrote, which was about the LAW GIVEN TO THE ISRAELITES ABOUT INDIVIDUAL SINS. Which itself was given as a contrast with the Koran's specific commands to Muslim readers to kill innocent people, which we see in practice all the time these days.
Yes, sheesh again. Leftists seem to be severely challenged when it comes to reading in context. OH and by the way IIRC some of the instances you list were not ordered by God and actually against His will. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
We know that you say that when there's a problem in the bible, it's not the bible that's wrong, it's our reading of it, but you know, repeted genocide is pretty hard to misinterpret.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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I said there are direct commands to the individual Muslim reader of the Koran to murder infidels at will. Yes, and I said that in context that's not the case.
quote: quote: quote: Read in full context, Allah is telling the Muslims AT THE TIME to kill the people, who AT THE TIME were trying to kill all the Muslims, drive them from their homes and destroy the word of God. Allah says that any time IN GENERAL people do this, they are to be fought against (with moderation) until they stop their evil actions. Killing others is permissible, in much the same as the OT, to prevent the victory of evil:
quote: What you are quoting are God's commands to the Israelites about the right punishments for violation of the Law which are spelled out in great detail in the OT books of the Law. Well no, I was (mostly) quoting the Law, which was given to Jacob and reiterated to Moses and others.
Laws given to the nation of Israel, to be executed by the nation of Israel on ITS OWN PEOPLE. The Law was not just given to the nation of Israel, it was given to Jacob and his descendants. They applied to Moses who never entered what would become the Kingdom of Israel, and they applied to Jews who were exiled from the Kingdom of Israel. They applied to Paul when he was in Anatolia. You seem to have, as ever, confused the covenant with the Law. The covenant also wasn't to the nation of Israel but to the descendants of Jacob. The covenant was for Jacob and his descendants to obey the Law and in return God will protect and elevate the descendants of Jacob (there were several covenants, so I'm just covering the most relevant one (ie., the Israelites)). This isn't to say the Law doesn't apply to everyone else (it does), it's just that the descendants of Jacob had a contract with God which provided them with rewards for obeying it not just punishments for disobeying it. Also, the bit about sieging a city and killing all the men inside and enslaving the women and children is not part of the Law.
THERE IS NO COMPARISON. Well actually, there is. The people the Koran says you should kill are idolaters who are trying to kill Muslims, until they stop trying to kill Muslims. The people the Bible says you should kill are people who are picking up sticks on Saturday (Numbers 15:32-36, which does not occur in the nation of Israel). Oh wait, the Bible is worse.
Sheesh. Why are Leftists such wackos? Because we've read the Bible and the Koran?
Oh and a "garden" is also a carnal image, as in earthly pleasures. I see, so the Garden of Eden (ie., Paradise) is and was a place of carnal pleasures. I'll keep that in mind. Well in that case:
quote: quote: quote: Edited by Modulous, : No reason given. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
One quick point that I will say is that among believers there are people on all ends of the political spectrum. God is not an exclusive revelation only to the political right.
I happen to be a political moderate myself.
Christian Left quote: Edited by Phat, : added jabberwockyChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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