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Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(6)
Message 776 of 892 (796204)
12-25-2016 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 775 by NoNukes
12-24-2016 11:01 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
Faith doesn't seem to understand that what is being mourned is not the loss of the election but the loss of rationality, discernment, and compassion at the top. Even the Republicans bemoaned this candidate. He has none of the qualities people from both sides want in a president, and many qualities most people find not only undesirable but despicable. The article describes how these feelings of people who voted against Trump are different from past lost elections, that those elections then were not accompanied by feelings of hopelessness and despair for our democracy.
Trump is a deplorable human being and he will soon be leader of the most powerful country on Earth. This should be a cause of great concern to people of all stripes everywhere throughout the world.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 775 by NoNukes, posted 12-24-2016 11:01 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 779 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-25-2016 11:09 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 787 by marc9000, posted 12-25-2016 3:57 PM Percy has replied
 Message 789 by Faith, posted 12-25-2016 4:20 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(6)
Message 790 of 892 (796223)
12-25-2016 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by marc9000
12-25-2016 3:57 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
marc9000 writes:
This message, combined with your previous messages 758 and 763, indicate to me that you're getting your news only from a few biased sources,...
Unless Trump didn't say, "The United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability," or he didn't pressure Obama over a U.N. resolution on Israeli West Bank settlements, the news reported in Message 758 was perfectly accurate, and the link in Message 763 was to an editorial, not a news article.
...and using it to work yourself into a nervous wreck over someone who's not going to be nearly as bad as you imagine.
It's isn't the news that encourages negative views of Trump - it's his own words and actions that show him to be misogynist, secretive, racist, antidemocratic, uninformed, impulsive, crude, self-centered and repugnant.
You should try to understand that other people might choose to access information that you don't.
I hope you're interested in having the most accurate information available.
but the loss of rationality, discernment, and compassion at the top.
He didn't build his business, employ thousands of people, get through countless building regulations in New York to build his tower, or do the charitable things he's done by being any of those things.
You said this backwards, but I get your meaning. Whatever knowledge and talents Trump brought to the conduct of his businesses, during the election campaign his pronouncements across a broad range of political topics revealed little rationality or discernment and certainly no compassion. In fact he displayed no admirable qualities, just a gift for verbal fisticuffs.
Do you truly admire what you seem to think of as Trump's excellent business acumen? The way he saved his financial skin exiting Atlantic City? The racism he displayed in New York? The evictions? The questionable tax avoidance?
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency.
Would this be the same Washington Post that destroyed the Nixon presidency?
Even the Republicans bemoaned this candidate.
Not all of them. Have you noticed that most of the ones who did have been in politics for a long time? Live a nice lifestyle? Could it be that maybe they're nervous about a second look at the losing the status quo? As in their corrupt little ride?
Long-standing Republicans with a "nice lifestyle" on a "corrupt little ride"? Who knew!
The article was written by someone with very biased views,...
It was an editorial reflecting the attitudes of many who voted against Trump. It never represented itself as unbiased news, nobody claimed it was news, nobody claimed it doesn't reflect a particular point of view.
...there was plenty of hopelessness and despair when Reagan was elected...
No, there was not hopelessness and despair about the future of our democracy.
The U.S. has been largely built on genuine enthusiasm, ~pride in one's work~. But the downside to capitalism is that "pride in work" usually comes in second, behind MONEY.
Well, yes, precisely, and now a very avaricious capitalist has been given the keys to the most powerful country in the world.
--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Restore message links that had somehow become plain text.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by marc9000, posted 12-25-2016 3:57 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 792 by NoNukes, posted 12-25-2016 8:58 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(8)
Message 797 of 892 (796238)
12-26-2016 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 792 by NoNukes
12-25-2016 8:58 PM


Re: Feeling Post Election Trauma
NoNukes writes:
But you still have to vet sources and I see no evidence whatsoever that either Faith or marc9000 are capable of filtering what they hear for the truth. So what comes across is a debate about what Trump has undeniably said and done, versus yeah but Obama is a Kenyan, or Hillary is running a sex slave shop in the back of a pizzeria.
Yes, and even more alarming is that over time this inability to discern and filter real from unreal will only cement their views more firmly. They'll find no fact so firm it can't be explained away in their own minds if it conflicts with their opinion.
Faith seems to think that voting against Trump means a preference for Hilary. I think I'm like many people in disliking both candidates, but when it comes to who's made of the better presidential timber, who has the most knowledge and experience, who has the more appropriate temperament and qualities, clearly it's almost anyone but Trump. Those who think exploiting and dehumanizing women, walking unannounced into woman and teenager dressing rooms, keeping finances secret, expressing racist sentiments, taking away health insurance, putting the ignorant in charge of government agencies, expanding gun ownership, not being concerned about our air and water, conducting trade wars, rebooting the nuclear arms race, are all good things, then Trump's their man.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Added climate and trade war concerns.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 792 by NoNukes, posted 12-25-2016 8:58 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 806 of 892 (796418)
12-29-2016 7:22 PM


US Imposes Sanctions on Russia for Hacking
From today's New York Times: Obama Strikes Back at Russia for Election Hacking
The Obama administration ejected 35 Russian diplomats it claims were spying and sanctioned Russian's two foremost intelligence agencies. I don't think this solves anything, and I expect Russia will respond with a roughly equivalent number of ejections and sanctions against the US.
The New York Times today also reran their December 13th story on the how of the Russian hacking: The Perfect Weapon: How Russian Cyberpower Invaded the U.S.
There are three main reasons Trump will be president, and if only two of them had happened the outcome would have been different. But the Democrats ran a weak candidate, the Russian hacking caused a weekly flood of leaks of DNC and Clinton campaign emails, and the FBI director revived the Clinton email server issue in the form of two letters to Congress just a week before the election, the second just two days before election day. It seems unlikely that the Russian hacking swung the election by itself.
AbE: Here's some irony from the first link:
quote:
A more detailed report on the intelligence, ordered by President Obama, will be published in the next three weeks, though much of the detail especially evidence collected from implants in Russian computer systems, tapped conversations and spies is expected to remain classified.
Got that? Some of the important evidence of Russian hacking was gathered through the hacking of Russian computers by the US. But hey, we're the victims here.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : AbE.

Replies to this message:
 Message 807 by jar, posted 12-29-2016 8:03 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 808 by Stile, posted 12-30-2016 2:29 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 847 of 892 (797050)
01-10-2017 2:43 PM


In case it hasn't been posted yet, here's a link to the NYT reference to the "unclassified summary of a highly sensitive assessment from American intelligence and law enforcement agencies":
I'm going to suggest that when anyone references a part of the report that they believe true or think false that they quote the relevant text from the report.
AbE: Some may prefer this direct link to the PDF: Background to Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections: The Analytic Process and Cyber Incident Attribution
AbE2: Just to reduce potential confusion, the PDF begins with a couple pages of background information, then follows on page 4 of the PDF with the actual document Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : AbE.
Edited by Percy, : AbE2.

Replies to this message:
 Message 851 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 2:57 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 853 of 892 (797056)
01-10-2017 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 829 by Faith
01-09-2017 6:48 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Faith writes:
John McAfee, known for his work in cybersecurity, says the supposed evidence given in the CIA report for Russian hacking shows such a low level of intelligence competence that alone proves it false: that is, the evidence they give is that a Russian Cyrillic keyboard was used,...
Neither the word "Cyrillic" nor "keyboard" appear in the report (Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections).
...the time/date stamp indicated an origin in Moscow,...
Neither the word "stamp" nor "timestamp" nor "date" appear in the report.
...the IP number was from Russia,...
Neither the acronym "IP" nor the word "address" (that's what it really is, an IP address) nor the word "number" as a synonym for address appear in the report.
John McAfee appears to be making things up.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 829 by Faith, posted 01-09-2017 6:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 856 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 3:35 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 855 of 892 (797058)
01-10-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 854 by NoNukes
01-10-2017 3:15 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
NoNukes writes:
quote:
Reince Priebus said Trump "accepts the fact that this particular case was entities in Russia" but argued that the DNC should be criticized for the way it handled cybersecurity threats.
Whatever the truth is, surely Priebus is right about the criticism due the DNC.
According to the report, the Republicans were hacked, too:
quote:
Russia collected on some Republican-affiliated targets but did not conduct a comparable disclosure campaign.
Republicans might not want to be too smug, lest they find their own emails released once the bloom is off the Trump/Putin love-fest.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 854 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2017 3:15 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 862 of 892 (797068)
01-10-2017 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 856 by Faith
01-10-2017 3:35 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Faith writes:
He's commenting on the actual report.
As McAfee says in the first 20 seconds (see the YouTube video in your Message 829), he's referring to the Grizzly Steppe report about malicious Russian cyber activity, which you can find here: GRIZZLY STEPPE — Russian Malicious Cyber Activity. McAfee has no way of knowing if the classified report is based upon Grizzly Steppe because he hasn't seen it, but it would make no sense to classify material already released in a public report. As the unclassified report states:
quote:
Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections is a declassified version of a highly classified assessment that has been provided to the President and to recipients approved by the President.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Clarification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 3:35 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 889 of 892 (828657)
02-22-2018 7:45 AM


Sanders Denies Russian Assistance
From yesterday's Politico: Bernie blames Hillary for allowing Russian interference
In a denial striking in its similarity to Trump denials, Bernie Sanders denied Russian assistance in the 2016 Presidential primary:
quote:
The Vermont senator was adamant that he did not benefit from Russian bots urging voters to support him. I did not know that Russian bots were promoting my campaign. Russian bots were not promoting my campaign, he said.
He also somehow believes it was Clinton's responsibility and within her power to halt Russian interference:
quote:
...Sanders and his former campaign manager, Jeff Weaver, presented a series of self-serving statements that were not accurate, and that track with efforts by Trump and his supporters to undermine the credibility of the Mueller probe.
The real question to be asked is what was the Clinton campaign [doing about Russian interference]? They had more information about this than we did, Sanders said in the interview with Vermont Public Radio.
What we're seeing is human nature in action: "I'm responsible for anything good that happened, and anything bad that happened was somebody else's fault."
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 890 of 892 (828658)
02-22-2018 9:27 AM


An example of gerrymandering in Pennsylvania
The Pennsylvania Supreme Court recently redrew the congressional district map. For any who doubt the egregious, overt and blatantly biased nature of Republican gerrymandering and its intention to render as many Democratic votes impotent as possible, here's an example:
This is a map of the old district 5:
This is a map of the new district 7:
Gerrymandering should be illegal because it interferes with the democratic process even more directly than a Russian Facebook bot. Why it's not illegal I don't understand. Both parties seem to accept that the party in power will gerrymander. One thing that's clear: if an election district resembles a drunken effort at drawing a snake or dragon, then it's gerrymandered. Such obvious gerrymandering should be illegal. The only reason gerrymandering has become a topic lately is because the Republicans were the first to widely apply computer technology to the problem of redrawing districts so as to maximize Republican advantage.
While gerrymandering isn't illegal, it *can* be challenged. Unfortunately it cannot be challenged because it advantages one political party at the expense of another. There has to be something else at stake, for instance, reducing minority representation.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 891 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2018 12:00 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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