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Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 852 of 892 (797055)
01-10-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 850 by Faith
01-10-2017 2:55 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
You said I treated RM's comment as evidence. I DID NOT. And I'm not addressing anything else you say until you straighten this out
Then I suspect you will be waiting indefinitely.
Here Message 832 is what you said in response to RMs comment, Faith:
Faith writes:
Seems like good evidence to me too.
Notice the too at the end of the sentence.
And to what were you responding? Message 831
Rigsy writes:
That is a good point, any decent hacker can cover their tracks pretty well. Especially so, you would think, of a trained intelligence agent.
That statement is not evidence. It is an opinion.
Did I make a mistake about what you were referring to. Apparently not according to you:
quote:
was responding only to Riggamortis' agreement that it would be sttupid for a hacking operation to leave such blatant clues to its identify, that's all.
Again, that agreement is not evidence.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 850 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 2:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 854 of 892 (797057)
01-10-2017 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 844 by Faith
01-10-2017 11:19 AM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
It's the sort of thing that could start a war and I'd rather not start a war, especially over something that isn't even true;
You are missing the point; apparently deliberately.
Nobody is threatening to start a war over the hacking. Instead they are talking about sanctions and pulling some diplomats. On the other hand, the things Taq cites are actually provocative and warlike way (missiles targeting US planes and threats to NATO countries) yet you give them a free pass. Compared to those things, hacking a couple of computers, the way say China has done to us to steal corporate secrets is a drop in the budget.
What is at stake here is not whether or not we go to war with Russia, but whether or not we treat them as our buxom buddy. Even Trump seems at this point to acknowledge that the Russians probably hacked into the DNC.
Reince Priebus Acknowledges Russia Was Behind Hacks
quote:
Reince Priebus said Trump "accepts the fact that this particular case was entities in Russia" but argued that the DNC should be criticized for the way it handled cybersecurity threats.
Whatever the truth is, surely Priebus is right about the criticism due the DNC. On the other hand, what was Watergate about?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 844 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 11:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 855 by Percy, posted 01-10-2017 3:21 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 857 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 3:37 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 861 of 892 (797067)
01-10-2017 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 857 by Faith
01-10-2017 3:37 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
The subject is not what Russia may be doing to provoke war. THAT'S ANOTHER SUBJECT. I'm talking about the validity of the intelligence report on Russian hacking of the election. Period.
Right, Faith. Except that you stated your wish that the hacking not provoke a war. Here is an apology for you. I am sorry that I exposed your hypocrisy over the hacking which nobody is using as reason to fight a war with Russia.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Faith, posted 01-10-2017 3:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 868 of 892 (797080)
01-11-2017 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 867 by Faith
01-11-2017 12:36 AM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
and it sounds to me like he's saying it originated with intelligence..And here is where he mentions that 16 agencies agreed that Iraq had WMD, although he doesn't exactly say they invented the idea, as I put it.
We no longer have to guess about these questions Faith. The document that was the basis of the authorization to use force has been declassified and released. I'll cite some of the information. It largely confirms my opinion that General Powell was badly abused by the Bush administration.
The CIA Just Declassified the Document That Supposedly Justified the Iraq Invasion
It seems abundantly clear that the information from the intelligence services was spun, "upgraded" in certainty, and exaggerated by the politicians, primarily the Bush administration. In many cases qualified hypothesis were upgraded to fact.
Here is one excerpt from quoted from the document. There is plenty more similar stuff.
quote:
An example of that: According to the newly declassified NIE, the intelligence community concluded that Iraq "probably has renovated a [vaccine] production plant" to manufacture biological weapons "but we are unable to determine whether [biological weapons] agent research has resumed." The NIE also said Hussein did not have "sufficient material" to manufacture any nuclear weapons and "the information we have on Iraqi nuclear personnel does not appear consistent with a coherent effort to reconstitute a nuclear weapons program."
But in an October 7, 2002 speech in Cincinnati, Ohio, then-President George W. Bush simply said Iraq, "possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons" and "the evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program."
And of course everyone is probably aware of the statements Colin Powell passed on about Iraq trying to purchase yellow cake. Remember what happened to Valerie Plume after her husband debunked this bit of falsehood?
Yet another excerpt:
quote:
"We do have solid evidence of the presence in Iraq of al Qaeda members, including some that have been in Baghdad," Rumsfeld said. "We have what we consider to be very reliable reporting of senior-level contacts going back a decade, and of possible chemical- and biological-agent training."
But the NIE said its information about a working relationship between al Qaeda and Iraq was based on "sources of varying reliability" like Iraqi defectors and it was not at all clear that Hussein had even been aware of a relationship, if in fact there were one.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 867 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 12:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 870 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 1:52 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 873 of 892 (797111)
01-11-2017 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 870 by Faith
01-11-2017 1:52 PM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
Then the intelligence agencies simply caved in to what they knew Bush wanted, Powell too. But the point I was addressing was that those agencies, ALL 16 OF THEM, lied about there being WMD in Iraq. Sad to think we can't trust them.
Nice try to avoid the point. But you have it completely wrong.
No, they did not cave in. I provided documentation of exactly that point. The document in question is what was provided to Bush before he made requested authority from Congress. The intelligence agencies said that most likely there were no WMDs and put out a report saying that. That's the point, Faith. The intelligence guys put out reports with plenty of disclaimers and indications that some things were just guesses. It was the administration that white washed all of that into certainty.
Let's also remember that the 'yellow cake' intelligence came from a British intelligence not american. This shows exactly how desperate the administration was to find something to go to war about.
Of course, since you are claiming that the intelligence agencies caved, I expect you can provide a source. So where is it?
ABE:
I also wanted to add that according to Powell the intelligence became less certain over time rather than more certain. Yet the administration still proceeded to war. Trump's take on this is that Bush lied, and he said exactly that during the primary campaign.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 870 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 1:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 879 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 9:12 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 874 of 892 (797112)
01-11-2017 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 872 by herebedragons
01-11-2017 4:44 PM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
n and make people realize that ultimately we are all working towards the same goal
Is that true?
Are we all working towards the same goal? I am not sure that is the case unless the goal is expressed in nearly nebulous terms like "promoting freedom, liberty, and the American way".
The health care situation is the perfect time to phrase things in a "same goal" way. Is the republican goal really to provide better cheaper effective coverage for the 20 million Americans who have Obama care plus the uncovered poor? I doubt it, but there is the opportunity.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 872 by herebedragons, posted 01-11-2017 4:44 PM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 875 by jar, posted 01-11-2017 8:12 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 877 of 892 (797116)
01-11-2017 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 876 by Riggamortis
01-11-2017 8:15 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Until the allegation that the Russians have dirt on Trump with which they may manipulate him I couldn't really see a reason why it mattered who had done it.
I understand that some people feel that way. After all, if the information is true, what's wrong with people knowing the truth. I am not in that camp and I feel that argument is totally bogus.
Folks ought to be able to have bad ideas, or even illegal ideas in practice as long as they don't put them into action. So the idea that the DNC had secrets that they wanted to keep is fine. Given that, releasing one sides secret plans without releasing the other's is inherently unfair, and if done by a foreign government trying to influence our elections is concerning.
And that concern exists regardless of what our history is. Maybe the government has no reason to complain, but I sure as hell do. Particular when I've also been complaining about our own government's interference.
Until the allegation that the Russians have dirt on Trump with which they may manipulate him
I don't give that dirt the least bit of credence. Beyond that, I doubt I could be more disgusted with Trump if that crap were correct.
Edited by NoNukes, : Some tweaking.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by Riggamortis, posted 01-11-2017 8:15 PM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 881 by Riggamortis, posted 01-11-2017 10:59 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 880 of 892 (797119)
01-11-2017 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 879 by Faith
01-11-2017 9:12 PM


Re: Colin Powell: 16 intelligence agencies agreed Iraq had WMD
Yes that Powell said the information became less certain, but was he lying when he said 16 intelligence agencies all signed off on the presence of WMD?
You don't need me to answer that for you. What do the facts actually say? The facts are that intelligence signed off on a document casting doubt on the presence of WMD. It is not my opinion, but a consensus opinion that the intelligence was misrepresented severely prior to the invasion.
You want to convince anyone that the exact opposite is the case? Then produce some facts. Yes, there were some intelligence errors and some of those did improperly assess Iraq as a threat worthy of invading. And I am not suggesting that the intelligence could not be wrong once again. But to dismiss the current intelligence out of hand because of those errors goes too far.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 9:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 882 of 892 (797122)
01-12-2017 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 881 by Riggamortis
01-11-2017 10:59 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Regarding screwing Bernie out of the primaries. Neither the Republican nor the Democratic primaries are democratic, and are not intended to be. The are the process by which the parties select their own candidates. Bernie is not a democrat. He is an independent. I immensely preferred Bernie, but the party did not want him and in the end, Hilary won the primary by almost as many votes as she won the actual election, meaning several million votes.
As far as the hypocrisy about the government, well theoretically at least, the Congress folks are supposed to represent us. If I am mad about election tampering, they should be too. All that is required regarding addressing hypocrisy is that any actions taken be proportionate.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 881 by Riggamortis, posted 01-11-2017 10:59 PM Riggamortis has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 883 of 892 (797124)
01-12-2017 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 878 by Faith
01-11-2017 8:58 PM


Re: Trump's Misbehaviors: the ongoing misinformation
If so, this statement misrepresents it. He was talking about WANTING to do this or that, not bragging about having "assaulted" a woman.
Your statement is inaccurate. Trump specifically talked about what he was able to do with impunity because he was a celebrity. He said that just starts kissing women without asking. He also related a story of failing his attempt to seduce a married woman that he moved on "like a bitch". Not tried to move on... he claimed he did move on. Yes he did also talk about things he thought he could do without asking, and may have never done.
At some point, consistently spinning statements about the same subject starts to sound like lying. You aren't at that point in my opinion. But you are extremely careless about what you say. I highly recommend checking first.
Example:
quote:
You know I’m automatically attracted to beautiful I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait.
And when you’re a star, they let you do it, Trump says. You can do anything.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by Faith, posted 01-11-2017 8:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 891 of 892 (828728)
02-23-2018 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 890 by Percy
02-22-2018 9:27 AM


Re: An example of gerrymandering in Pennsylvania
While gerrymandering isn't illegal, it *can* be challenged. Unfortunately it cannot be challenged because it advantages one political party at the expense of another.
Your statement may be premature. The Supreme Court has indicated a willingness to consider partisan gerrymandering, but they have not seen an objective standard for what should an unconstitutional gerrymander. What that seems to mean is that the more conservative folk on the court are going to accept some level of vote stacking.
There are a couple of cases on the Supreme Court's docket that will present arguments for an objective standard. Let's see what happens. I have to admit that I am not that hopeful.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 890 by Percy, posted 02-22-2018 9:27 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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