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Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Welfare - what is it and who benefits | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I saw this article on my facebook feed and thought it would make a good discussion topic.
quote: Read the article for how these are false myths if you disagree and reply with the myth as a subtitle. There are many people who benefited from these standard types of low-income welfare early in life and ended up being successful. Now, we can also argue that any benefit you get for a government source is social welfare, and in the broadest sense this would include (but not be limited to):
General welfare would include standard low income welfare and social welfare, and thus in this broader sense we are all receiving general welfare. So the question becomes not so much who is getting benefits, but what is the best way for society to invest the welfare dollars for the good of the people:
quote: ... to promote the general welfare for ourselves and our posterity ... IIRC (if not correct let me know) several studies have shown that giving a poor person a dollar returns ~$1.40 or more to the economy (trickle up works) while giving a rich person a dollar returns ~$0.90 or less to the economy (trickle down doesn't work). Additional information to aid the discussion, from WELFARE-TO-WORK PROGRAM BENEFITS AND COSTS quote: Note that this study only covered the "standard" low income welfare programs and not tax cuts and credits, etc. ... and that I have only included one example from the data. This one example shows that for a $1 investment that the return was a net loss of $0.16 from the government and a net gain of $4.06 for the economy. This paper discusses "standard" welfare benefit by age: Return on Investment: Cost vs. Benefits and there is a graph on page 2 showing the most return is during the younger years. Likewise studies on raising the minimum wage results in economic growth, and as that is a means to provide Earnings supplement the above excerpt from the table is applicable in showing why this occurs. All the standard welfare programs are efforts to provide a minimum living income, so the next logical step is for societies to move towards a guaranteed living income, because Earnings supplements show a positive gain for the economy and society in general. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Thread copied here from the Welfare - what is it and who benefits thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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Providing a safety net through government assistance makes our country strongerand it’s time for Americans to stop spreading untrue and damaging rumors decrying the very programs that are creating a brighter future for our nation’s most vulnerable. It’s time for politicians to stop trying to cut meager benefits to struggling families. I am grateful to be able to pay taxes and that unemployment insurance exists for those of us who through no fault of our own lose our jobs. I have a lot of customers who use government assistance and can readily empathize with them. I dont know how people even survive at minimum wage jobs. They have to work a full 40 hours just to scrape by. They cant make enough to get ahead. Because there are millions of people out there who truly need these programs to help them get back on their feet. And you never knowsomeday, you might be one of them. Things happen in life. People get hurt...they get sick...they fall behind. It is our governments duty to help the less fortunate. Lets talk about the myths.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I am grateful to be able to pay taxes and that unemployment insurance exists for those of us who through no fault of our own lose our jobs. ... I have been on unemployment several times and other forms of assistance at various times and now I am getting social security, but I also have investments that now allow us to live comfortably.
Things happen in life. People get hurt...they get sick...they fall behind. ... Indeed, and that is why it is called unemployment insurance -- a policy that you pay into against the chances of being unemployed, and not an "entitlement" -- and also why it is called social security -- to ensure elderly and disabled have a livable income, again it is an insurance policy that you pay into against the chances of being destitute and not an "entitlement" ....
... It is our governments duty to help the less fortunate. And this is where there is a divide between conservatives and progressives: how much is our government bound to assist those less fortunate individuals.
Lets talk about the myths. Starting with Myth #1: Welfare Payments Are Too High ... from the article in Message 1 quote: I would challenge anyone who thinks these programs are paying to much to live on the allowances they provide. One of the problems I have with the programs is that when you start working or get a raise your benefits are cut by the same amount, making it a lot harder to climb out of the hole, and also presenting a disincentive to advance by working harder. How much better would it be to have a guaranteed livable income regardless of your financial condition, and then be able to build on that through work. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Riggamortis Member (Idle past 2411 days) Posts: 167 From: Australia Joined:
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Nice topic, here is some Aussie data on unemployment vs job vacancies.
http://unemployedworkersunion.com/...kers-v-job-vacancy-data 2016 (November) Unemployed: 725,200 Underemployed: 1, 059,400 Hidden Unemployment: 1.386 million Job Vacancies: 163, 700 Ratio of job seekers to job vacancies: 19.36 That's nearly 20 people looking for work for every job vacancy! There's just not enough work. I cant imagine how bad crime would be if not for our social safety net. Newstart(job seekers) allowance is roughly $265 Aus per week. Anyone receiving a welfare payment is also eligible for rent assistance and we have a public housing system that charges on a percentage of income basis. There are two family tax benefits A and B, my wife and I are eligible for one of them despite a combined annual income upwards of 100k. We are also reimbursed for childcare costs up to $5000 per year(from memory). My wife and I are reimbursed around 50% of the cost of visits to the doctor, we pay nothing for the kids to see a doctor. We have used the local govt hospital on many occasions for injuries and the births of our kids with no out of pocket expense. You do have to pay for prescription medication on the way out though which is subsidised for those on pensions etc. We received a first home buyer grant of $7000. I got a bit carried away there but I thought it wouldn't hurt to add some insight into a more socialist nation. Maybe you guys will see what you're missing out on 😂
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I got a bit carried away there but I thought it wouldn't hurt to add some insight into a more socialist nation. Maybe you guys will see what you're missing out on I lived in Canada for nigh on 19 years, our son was born there at no cost to us, my impacted wisdom teeth were removed at no cost to us. I collected unemployment at one point and also now receive the Canadian Pension Plan -- one of two plans they have in lieu of Social Security.
Hidden Unemployment: 1.386 million I'm curious how this is calculated, and does this include stay-at-home moms (which I would consider "underemployed")?
That's nearly 20 people looking for work for every job vacancy! ... When I was unemployed in Canada there were ~400 applicants for a single position in my field. When I was employed (by a town), I was hiring technical staff to fill out a new department, and I had ~200 applications for one job. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I'm curious how this is calculated, and does this include stay-at-home moms (which I would consider "underemployed")? What would be the point of such a classification? What if it turned out that 50% of married women were stay-at-home moms? Would that be a bad thing? Being a stay-at-home parent is only a negative thing if the parents have not decided that staying at home is in the interest of their family. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Riggamortis Member (Idle past 2411 days) Posts: 167 From: Australia Joined: |
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6220.0
A link to the hidden unemployment data. As I understand it unemployed is those without a job and actively looking, underemployed is those with a job but actively looking for more work and the hidden unemployment is people capable of work who do want to work but aren't actively looking. The figure is mostly stay at home parents and students.
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Taq Member Posts: 10038 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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I have also heard many politicians spreading the myth that there is rampant welfare fraud. The truth of the matter is that outright fraud is very rare. A quick google search turned up some figures for food stamps:
"The U.S. Department of Agriculture, which administers the food stamps program, said 3.8 percent of benefits were paid in error in 2011, according to a factcheck done by PolitiFact Texas in June 2013. The error rate covers both overpayments, including fraud, as well as underpayments. Caseworker mistakes, rather than fraud, were the primary cause."PolitiFact | On average, 20 to 25 cents of every $1 spent on four government assistance programs is lost to fraud, Sen. Ron Johnson says 3.8% of benefits are paid in error, and this includes all errors, from clerical mistakes to outright fraud. Therefore, fraud probably makes up about 1% of the budget assigned for food stamps. Conservatives like to vilify the other 99% of welfare programs based on that 1% fraud. That's sickening, and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I have also heard many politicians spreading the myth that there is rampant welfare fraud. The truth of the matter is that outright fraud is very rare. ... That's covered by
quote: Conservatives like to vilify the other 99% of welfare programs based on that 1% fraud. That's sickening, and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. Indeed. Especially when the problem is companies that don't pay a living wage for a 40 hour work week. Companies like Walmart that even have courses for employees to file for welfare and medicare programs instead of paying enough and providing health insurance for their workers -- THEY are scamming the system to line their greedy pockets when million dollar incomes are not enough: THESE are the real [i]Welfare Queens, and they put Ronald's mythical queen to shame. We end up subsidizing these billionaires from our tax dollars. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Taq Member Posts: 10038 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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RAZD writes: Indeed. Especially when the problem is companies that don't pay a living wage for a 40 hour work week. Companies like Walmart that even have courses for employees to file for welfare and medicare programs instead of paying enough and providing health insurance for their workers -- THEY are scamming the system to line their greedy pockets when million dollar incomes are not enough: THESE are the real Welfare Queens, and they put Ronald's mythical queen to shame. We end up subsidizing these billionaires from our tax dollars. This is part of a general trend where people have different rules for megacorporations and the rich as compared to the poor. A poor person steals a $200 car radio and they face some major jail time. A rich person subverts financial laws and earns $20 million dollars, and they will probably face no jail time, and possibly not even a trial. This is a battle that people have been fighting since the very inception of our country. There have always been wars between corporations and labor. Different political movements will either bust unions or support them. What I think everyone agrees on is that capitalism isn't a fair economic system. However, it is one of the better economic systems out there. Welfare and labor laws are an attempt to make up for the injustices of a capitalist economy. When you try to strip these away you are supporting injustice. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... What I think everyone agrees on is that capitalism isn't a fair economic system. ... Capitalism is inherently amoral and has no mechanism to reign in amoral people. Left to it's own devices a free market capitalist system will always trend towards increasing income inequality, that will take advantage of moral people and poor people, because it can, and because it rewards amoral behavior -- amoral people stealing, cheating, scamming -- taking what they can, however they can. Because of this a free market capitalist system will create and maintain multitudes of poor people. I'd like to thinks that these poor people have stronger morals than the takers ... but I don't know for sure.
... However, it is one of the better economic systems out there. ... So far, and only as it applies to large scale systems. Communal sharing works well in small groups (indeed it is the default system for virtually all indigenous tribes), such as worker owned companies, where the profits are shared equitably among all employees (as opposed to feudal model corporations concentrating profit gains to the kings and lords). This doesn't mean that we can't tweak the system to provide more equitable results. Social Capitalism, such as seen in the Nordic Countries, for example, provides a democratic social conscience to the system, and a goal to treat the least well off in a humane and respectful manner. This is where universal healthcare and guaranteed living income become public\government goals rather than personal or corporate profits. Those who do better than others pay taxes based on how much they benefit from the economic system. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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RAZD writes: Because of this a free market capitalist system will create and maintain multitudes of poor people. I'd like to thinks that these poor people have stronger morals than the takers ... but I don't know for sure. Well I think we know for sure that people are universally the same - on average. But we also know that they individually differ. And a very common feature of individuals that make and run large corporations is psychopathy. So go figure. This is why we have laws and regulated capitalism - to differing degrees.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Capitalism is inherently amoral and has no mechanism to reign in amoral people. Left to it's own devices a free market capitalist system will always trend towards increasing income inequality, that will take advantage of moral people and poor people, because it can, and because it rewards amoral behavior -- amoral people stealing, cheating, scamming -- taking what they can, however they can. Amoral or immoral?
This doesn't mean that we can't tweak the system to provide more equitable results. Social Capitalism, such as seen in the Nordic Countries, for example, provides a democratic social conscience to the system, and a goal to treat the least well off in a humane and respectful manner. This is where universal healthcare and guaranteed living income become public\government goals rather than personal or corporate profits. Those who do better than others pay taxes based on how much they benefit from the economic system. Ahhh, hopeless, starry-eyed navet... The Nordic system you refer to is crumbling under its own weight. They have a massive housing crisis in places like Sweden due largely in part to an influx in a migrant population that is eating its reserves without replenishing it. They think they can model after America's melting pot, but they've got the formula all wrong. Immigration in places like America only works because it is metered and regulated in a way where assimilation into the culture is much more fluid. Europe has turned on the firehouse and have expected the same results, but is in actuality creating a climate that promotes insular, sectarian factions. And that has always been the crux of the issue when it comes socialism -- the human condition. You talk about income inequality as if some people are intentionally holding other people down but make no mention of the inequality of effort where one person has to bust their ass to feed someone who knows they can live off the forced charity of a system. The hilarious thing is that you have no problem watching this fitness in action in biological, evolutionary terms. THAT is truly amoral -- neither moral nor immoral. It's just the reality. And the reality that you prefer not to recognize is that none of us deserve jack shit. Not a single one of us. Just because we're out of the forests doesn't mean that survival of the fittest no longer applies. We have to fight our lives every single day. There are winners in that game and there are losers. Now, since humans have more or less decided to get together for the betterment of our species as a collective way to maximize our survival, I would agree that safety nets ought to be in place in the form of unemployment insurance and to a lesser degree welfare, but to think that expanding the welfare state is the answer is extremely naive. People should be incentivized towards self-sufficiency. Some people legitimately cannot and it is those people that the system was designed for. But as we see in this country, almost a 3rd of the nation is on some form of welfare... Ridiculous. And unnecessary. "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... the hidden unemployment is people capable of work who do want to work but aren't actively looking. The figure is mostly stay at home parents and students. Ah, so that could be inflating the number a bit. I don't consider people not looking for work as unemployed, whereas this seems to assume that everyone capable of working should work. And a parent staying home would be an underpaid childcare worker, not unemployed ... as I see it. Their "income compensation" would be in tax credits and the income of a working spouse. Likewise I don't think every student should have to work as well as go to school. Thanks. Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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