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Author Topic:   The God That Paul Marketed Over Time.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 34 of 267 (793489)
10-30-2016 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
10-29-2016 7:42 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
Saul was dogmatic and a zealot, Paul was dogmatic and a zealot; Saul was a misogynist, Paul was a misogynist; Saul was convinced his position was the only right position, Paul was convinced his postition was the only right position.
I see no change in character.
Saul was not just a zealot for his position. He actually served folks he opposed up for execution to the point that after his conversion, the disciples crossed the street when they saw him coming. There was no sign of this level of excess after his conversion. This is one of the marked changes in Paul over Saul. And surely we could make something out of the fact that his conversion occurred essentially overnight.
Paul of course was the same person as Saul. That's not different from any other converted folk. But to say that there were no changes in his character does not seem to match what we believe we know about him.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 10-29-2016 7:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 10-31-2016 4:24 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 267 (794233)
11-12-2016 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
11-11-2016 7:23 AM


Re: Magnifying Glass On Paul
In short-- I feel that Paul's writings are best examined with a faith lens rather than a science lens. Does anyone disagree?
Many of Paul's arguments are intended to convince folk who are already believers in the Gospel of one or more related propositions. Such arguments would be unpersuasive to folks who are not believers. That's perfectly okay. Just as not every genetics class must start by proving that evolution is correct or by reciting the basics of DNA, not every writing by Paul should be intended to prove that Christ lived, died, and was resurrected.
I have no idea what you mean by a 'faith lens', but Paul's writings to say, the Church at Ephesus was intended as guidance for a church who ostensibly believed in Christ in the way Paul did.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 11-11-2016 7:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 267 (796070)
12-21-2016 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Stile
12-21-2016 3:06 PM


Re: Belief over Evidence.
Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
Your fingerprints were found at a crime scene which happens to be in your own house. Those fingerprints are evidence. Are they conclusive? The knife came from your kitchen and also has your fingerprints (and several others) on it. Is that conclusive?
Evidence means any fact which once establishes makes it more likely that a particular proposition is correct.
How can facts indicate a proposition is true... but not be conclusive?
Quite easily. Use your imagination.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Stile, posted 12-21-2016 3:06 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 12-22-2016 10:58 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 136 by Stile, posted 12-22-2016 11:41 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 267 (796125)
12-22-2016 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Stile
12-22-2016 11:41 AM


Re: Belief over Evidence.
For example, my fingerprints are evidence that I was at home at some point in the recent past.
Is that the only explanation for your fingerprints being in the house or even on the knife that was the murder weapon? No.
I'll note here that this being conclusive about some proposition, but not the actual proposition under discussion really makes your comment to GDR a bit ridiculous. It turns out that for any particular proposition, some evidence favors that position without mandating that position. Accordingly, such evidence is not conclusive in any way relevant to that particular proposition.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Stile, posted 12-22-2016 11:41 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Stile, posted 12-23-2016 8:17 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 267 (796161)
12-23-2016 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Stile
12-23-2016 8:17 AM


Re: Belief over Evidence.
No Nukes writes:
Is that the only explanation for your fingerprints being in the house or even on the knife that was the murder weapon? No.
That's a nice claim you have there. I notice you didn't back it up with anything.
I did not bother because coming up with examples should have been trivially easy for anyone with a skeptical mindset. I see that Jar did some of the lifting for you. I see know that my assumption was poor because anyone reasonably skeptic would never have made the statement that all evidence was conclusive in the first place.
For a further example, your fingerprints might end up on an object because you touched it at Walmart or Lowe's. Said object might later on end up at some stranger's house or even as a part of said house. If we were willing to be more extreme we might postulate someone lifting fingerprints you've left behind and placing them on objects at the crime scene.
To make the larger point, we know that all significant scientific conclusions are tentative, yet we agree that all theories are supported by evidence. That truism alone implies that evidence is not necessarily conclusive.
Your counter that 'well the evidence is conclusive of something" appears to be an attempt to save a silly statement that never should have been made in the first place.
If it doesn't mandate a position... then it isn't evidence. It's just data that's consistent with a position.
Perhaps you should review the definition of evidence.
If what you say here is true... then my fingerprints in the house *are* evidence that I am an expert kite flyer... because it "favours that position" (whatever that means) without mandating it.
Your fingerprints don't favor the idea that you fly kites expertly. They do "favor" the position that you have been present in the house despite not removing all doubt about that position because in a given circumstance the most likely explanation for your fingerprints being in the house is that you have been there. Whether or not that means recently is of course even more doubtful. Fingerprints can last a long time.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Stile, posted 12-23-2016 8:17 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 151 of 267 (796162)
12-23-2016 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by jar
12-23-2016 10:40 AM


Re: Belief over Evidence.
Someone could believe the person was in the house and did kill the mover even though the fact is that that is totally false.
In fact, things are even more extreme than that. Belief can even be contrary to the evidence because the evidence is just one or facts that a believer can deny.
belief has absolutely nothing to do with reality beyond the fact that a belief is self-referentialy true.
Belief may have nothing to do with reality. Even reliance on non-conclusive evidence can be supported by belief.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 12-23-2016 10:40 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 267 (797148)
01-13-2017 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by GDR
01-12-2017 7:59 PM


Re: Pauls Belief
I have provided statistical data from a non-Christian source and you call them "unsupported assertions"
Your stats might be more impressive if they were not simply South + Utah vs North. I don't think you've demonstrated much. Beyond that, many church goers participate in tithing which surely counts as part of their giving, but which only partially goes to real charitable causes rather than keeping the church light bill paid, and the pastor's car full of gas.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by GDR, posted 01-12-2017 7:59 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by GDR, posted 01-13-2017 2:08 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 249 by GDR, posted 01-13-2017 2:10 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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