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Author Topic:   Welfare - what is it and who benefits
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 70 (797193)
01-14-2017 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
01-13-2017 3:55 PM


Re: The Fraud Myth -- Myth #5
Capitalism is inherently amoral and has no mechanism to reign in amoral people. Left to it's own devices a free market capitalist system will always trend towards increasing income inequality, that will take advantage of moral people and poor people, because it can, and because it rewards amoral behavior -- amoral people stealing, cheating, scamming -- taking what they can, however they can.
Amoral or immoral?
This doesn't mean that we can't tweak the system to provide more equitable results. Social Capitalism, such as seen in the Nordic Countries, for example, provides a democratic social conscience to the system, and a goal to treat the least well off in a humane and respectful manner. This is where universal healthcare and guaranteed living income become public\government goals rather than personal or corporate profits.
Those who do better than others pay taxes based on how much they benefit from the economic system.
Ahhh, hopeless, starry-eyed navet... The Nordic system you refer to is crumbling under its own weight. They have a massive housing crisis in places like Sweden due largely in part to an influx in a migrant population that is eating its reserves without replenishing it. They think they can model after America's melting pot, but they've got the formula all wrong. Immigration in places like America only works because it is metered and regulated in a way where assimilation into the culture is much more fluid. Europe has turned on the firehouse and have expected the same results, but is in actuality creating a climate that promotes insular, sectarian factions.
And that has always been the crux of the issue when it comes socialism -- the human condition. You talk about income inequality as if some people are intentionally holding other people down but make no mention of the inequality of effort where one person has to bust their ass to feed someone who knows they can live off the forced charity of a system. The hilarious thing is that you have no problem watching this fitness in action in biological, evolutionary terms. THAT is truly amoral -- neither moral nor immoral. It's just the reality. And the reality that you prefer not to recognize is that none of us deserve jack shit. Not a single one of us. Just because we're out of the forests doesn't mean that survival of the fittest no longer applies. We have to fight our lives every single day. There are winners in that game and there are losers.
Now, since humans have more or less decided to get together for the betterment of our species as a collective way to maximize our survival, I would agree that safety nets ought to be in place in the form of unemployment insurance and to a lesser degree welfare, but to think that expanding the welfare state is the answer is extremely naive. People should be incentivized towards self-sufficiency. Some people legitimately cannot and it is those people that the system was designed for. But as we see in this country, almost a 3rd of the nation is on some form of welfare... Ridiculous. And unnecessary.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 01-13-2017 3:55 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 01-14-2017 10:15 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 19 by RAZD, posted 01-14-2017 10:35 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 70 (797204)
01-14-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by RAZD
01-14-2017 10:15 AM


Re: Myth #2: Welfare Recipients Are Lazy
The idea that most people on welfare are able-bodied adults who are just too lazy to get a job and make an honest living is utterly false.
So then you honestly believe that upwards of 25% of the population is so infirm that they can't reasonably take care of themselves? That belies all credibility, sir.
Is this just another fake conservative news meme or do you have real data to back that up?
This is in PDF version, so I can't link it any other way on this site.
Just a moment...
So the fault\cause of the problem is not the socio-economic system per se but the immigration crisis ... last I heard this was affecting all European countries indiscriminate of their governmental socio-economic system.
Curiously I don't consider Germany to be overly socialistic.
The migrant crisis is massively contributing to it due to a shortage in homes, a lack of assimilation, deep resentment on both sides, etc... But bringing Germany up is actually a great reference in the sense that she and France have been propping up the rest of the EU for close to a decade now. Places like Greece, which is as socialist as it gets, is a failed state at this point because it tries to eat its own flesh in the sense that it parasites off of the working class to fund the failed and corrupt government through the barrel of a gun.
AH yes the old fallacy of Social Darwinism ... when the fact is that we evolved to be social animals that take care of those in our tribe, young, elderly, disabled, and that the default "economy" of tribes is to share.
Yeah, exactly, OUR tribe... The problem is that you attribute "our tribe" to be the entire human race, which history and anthropology would strenuously disagree with. I agree that in truly small, communal communities that a form of socialism and communism can and does work. The problem is the people that think you can just magically extrapolate it on a grand scale and achieve the same results. History demonstrates ad naseum that it cannot.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 01-14-2017 10:15 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 01-16-2017 12:07 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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