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Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How can you have a two way communication with God? You talk and then you listen. In fact, it is wise to do more listening than talking. Notice Moses in Num 9:8-13 writes: Does it not seem as if the Lord is talking with Moses?
8 Moses answered them, "Wait until I find out what the LORD commands concerning you."9 Then the LORD said to Moses, 10 "Tell the Israelites: 'When any of you or your descendants are unclean because of a dead body or are away on a journey, they may still celebrate the LORD's Passover. 11 They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow all the regulations. 13 But if a man who is ceremonially clean and not on a journey fails to celebrate the Passover, that person must be cut off from his people because he did not present the LORD's offering at the appointed time. That man will bear the consequences of his sin. How can you even determine that you are communicating with God? I suppose to skeptical questioners such as you, there would be no evidence...but the fact that you get answers would be a clue...unless you attributed the answers to your own internal sub conscious.It is always wise to question inner voices...even still small ones...so another clue would be if the answer sounded right. By this I dont mean that the answer is simply what you want...I mean if the answer hints at wisdom...when you intuitively know it sounds right even if you may not agree with it. Why should anyone trust someone in authority? Don't be afraid to question any and all authority. I can understand how you could talk to Santa or the Tooth Fairy or God but how do you talk WITH any of them? You have read the Bible. It often speaks of people talking with God and not just to Him. You belief at this point is your decision and your responsibility. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Why do you lump these 3 characters together? I know that both Santa and the Tooth Fairy are characters invented by humanity. When I was a child i may have written a letter to Santa. Even on TV the local weatherman would report that Santas sleigh was enroute. As for the tooth fairy, I simply put my tooth under the pillow and found 50 cents in the morning, though even then I suspected my parents were involved. As for the God mentioned in Numbers 8 I do not see a similar character in the same way. How do you talk with Santa or the Tooth Fairy or God?
To acknowledge that the early Bible was simply human invented stories does not sit well with me. At the very least, these people believed that they were talking with God...just as many of us do today when we pray. The writers believed what they wrote, in my opinion. You cannot say the same for the other two characters...except perhaps that a small child believes that they really hear Santa on the roof. The comparison is not the same. The legends were foreknown to be myth by adults.
jar writes: . And after testing with logic, reason, and reality I do not arrive at the same conclusions you have reached. I do not see the character of God how you teach Him. ---You are quite certain your beliefs are wrong, chiefly because in my opinion you have a higher regard for logic, reason, and reality than you do to your belief. I refuse to assign a probability to my beliefs since such a calculation is impossible...unless you believe the critics and skeptics who denounce scripture. Many are learned. Most are unaffected by traditional bias or mythos. Honestly, I don't trust the wisdom(nor the motive) of these people. They have no solid case. They are in fact unbelievers. In stories such things are possible. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : editedChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
NoNukes writes: I did some quick research and found the following:
Just how many inner voice discussion with God are described in the Bible? Isn't that primarily a phenomena claimed by the post New Testament Church?Dallas Willard writes:
Here are some Biblical examples of what it looks like to hear God speak: The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. (Exodus 33:11) The LORD opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam (Numb 22:28) Eli told [the little boy] Samuel, ‘Go and lie down, and if [the Lord] calls you [again], say, Speak, Lord, for your servant is listening.’ (1 Samuel 3:9) David inquired of the LORD, and he answered, ‘Do not go straight up [as you did last time] As soon as you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the balsam trees, move quickly, because that will mean the LORD has gone out in front of you’ (2 Samuel 5:23-24) After the fire came a gentle whisper Then a voice said to [Elijah] (1 Kings 19:12-13) The LORD speaks and I skip like a calf! (Psalm 29:3, 6, par).Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
all that we have are reports. Some take scripture as authoritative and others do not. What is written is all we have.
On a personal note, I have not clearly heard an inner voice except once. Even then I have no way of verifying it. we do have an inner conscience however...Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It would be interesting to find out how many different writers George Lucas used. Or if he wrote the whole story. And whether he knew (he did) that it was intended to be a story before he even wrote it. The analogy falls flat.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
His salvation was in his own hands Nobody's salvation is in their own hands...apart from belief and surrender. Good works wont get you there. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So Phat, who built the Ark? Noah and God both. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The belief is necessary to listen to the instructions. People cant just run off doing random works and expect this to be proof of their faith. They would only be having faith in their own preconceived righteousness.
So make yourself an ark out of cypress wood. Make rooms in it. Cover it with tar inside and out. Here is how I want you to build it. The ark has to be 450 feet long. It has to be 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it. Leave the sides of the ark open a foot and a half from the top. Put a door in one side of the ark. Make lower, middle, and upper decks. - Genesis 6:14-16 To obey requires belief. Noah did everything exactly as God commanded him. - Genesis 6:22 Edited by Phat, : addedChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: If Paul had believed this, he would have had no need to preach Christ.
You judge the instructions on their own merits, regardless of the source. As Paul said, the Gentiles knew what to do without being told by the Hebrew God. We do what we know is right and that's how God judges us. Proverbs 14:12 writes: We do not need evidence to choose to believe. It may not be wise to choose not to choose Jesus while awaiting further evidence. In the meantime, go on doing what you know to be right...by all means....but it would be a mistake to wait until the apple falls from the tree and knocks you out rather than choosing to believe in gravity without evidence. There is a way that seems right to a man,But its end is the way of death. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It isn't so much a desire as a need. Remember that Noah needed to build his own ark. His salvation was in his own hands. Noah, however...as well as Abraham...were obedient to God. They did not desire to be free from authority. On the contrary, they listened to authority and did what God said. They did so willingly. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
whose authority are you under?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Why do I need to add a celestial leprechaun to that list? Yes...perhaps a celestial leprechaun would by definition be of no help...even if you got a pot of gold and all the lucky charms you could eat. You are convinced that you need nothing apart from what you have been given. Perhaps if I am your "Clarence" I have not earned my wings just yet. If GOD is useful as a font of wisdom, why not just seek wise humans? If GOD is useful due to magic, a whole new debate will ensue over whether magic actually exists and what it is by definition. If GOD is useful only as a voice of conscience which we all interpret differently, why are we even having a debate? Personally, I believe that GOD wants some form of relationship with everyone. The Trinity is, to me, simply GOD and Jesus who shared the same Spirit. You and Stile see no evidence nor even need of such a communion..thus perhaps you can find it among humanity alone. If I am Clarence, however, the verdict is still out on whether or not we will have a relationship ongoing. I certainly plan on hanging in there...as long as Percy provides the platform. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: OK. If so, is it possible that all atheists have already been given the opportunity to know God? The next question is why would one prefer to ignore Him? (Stay hypothetical in your answer. ) Just because you lack evidence...is that any reason to ignore Him? What is it you would hypothetically want from Him that is any different from what I want from Him? I'm convinced that I HAVE nothing apart from what I have been given. I am NOT convinced that there IS anything "apart" from what I have been given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
deleted
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Maybe this explains it Tangle. My irrationality has been notably more prevalent lately.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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