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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 204 of 1864 (787822)
07-22-2016 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Phat
07-22-2016 12:32 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:
Thus I'll drop the analogy.
Spinoza was wrong. You can divide infinity. Draw the line:
<-------------|---------------|--------------->
Infinite at both ends, divided into three parts. The end parts are infinite on one end each; the middle part is finite.
Reality does mess up the analogy to the Trinity - but maybe you should keep the reality and drop the Trinity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 206 of 1864 (787826)
07-22-2016 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Phat
07-22-2016 12:56 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:
Take an infinite bucket with an infinite number of balls in it. Pour them out. Are they divisible into more than one pile?
The balls are already finite. Only the number of balls is infinite. Of course you can make any number of separate piles of balls. I suppose you could make an "infinite" pile by constantly adding more balls from the bottomless bucket.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 220 of 1864 (793052)
10-19-2016 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Phat
10-19-2016 11:02 AM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:
Perhaps that is Jesus...while on earth, human. He died, (making Him finite) yet was raided from the Dead by one of the other two infinite parts. Does this make it any easier to understand One God in three persons?
The doctrine of the Trinity isn't hard to understand. It's hard to swallow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 11:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 11-13-2016 9:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 223 of 1864 (794304)
11-14-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
11-13-2016 9:17 PM


Re: Conceiving or Imagining Without Evidence
Phat writes:
To me, an invisible God makes more sense than a visible one,chiefly because a God by definition would be greater (larger,stronger,more powerful) than anything our modern minds could visibly imagine.
That's the same fallacy that the creationists use to put an arbitrary limit on microevolution.
It makes sense that we can see something as small as a grain of sand. It makes sense that we can see something as big as our fist. It makes sense that we can see something as big as an elephant. It makes sense that we can see something as big as the moon. It makes sense that we can see something as big as a galaxy.
So why does it suddenly "make sense" that we can't see something even bigger?
What creationists are really saying is that they wish there was a limit to microevolution, therefore there "must be". What you're saying is that you wish there was a plausible explanation for God being invisible, therefore there "must be".
You're attempt to make sense doesn't make any sense.
Phat writes:
It seems to me that for those who find such a concept hard to swallow, the main reason is simply because through lack of evidence or proof, the human mind has trouble believing.
For me its no problem. I was never chained to evidential thinking anyway.
You have it backwards. We've worked for centuries to unchain ourselves from empty belief and it's an on-going struggle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 11-13-2016 9:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Phat, posted 11-14-2016 6:55 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 226 of 1864 (794412)
11-15-2016 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Phat
11-14-2016 6:55 PM


Re: Conceiving or Imagining Without Evidence
Phat writes:
People who claim to limit God to a fig newton of our imagination have essentially missed the point---that God is more than they can swallow.
If we can't swallow it, why would we try?
Phat writes:
God is a much bigger concept than ringo feeding people and doing his chores.
Why would we need - or want - a concept bigger than that?
Phat writes:
Again...you limit God to a concept that can be fit in a box. You limit it to evidence. You limit it to something you can swallow.
If you can't swallow it, what good is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Phat, posted 11-14-2016 6:55 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Phat, posted 11-25-2016 1:37 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 237 of 1864 (794874)
11-30-2016 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Phat
11-25-2016 1:37 AM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:
A bigger concept than simply doing for others? Paul seemed to think that it was important to surrender your own self will---as he did---and accept Christ---as he also did.
Again...
What does it mean to "accept Christ"? If it means something other than accepting what He told you to DO, for God's sake tell us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Phat, posted 11-25-2016 1:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 238 of 1864 (794875)
11-30-2016 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Phat
11-26-2016 8:48 AM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:
Are you asking me to explain what I believe that Gods motives are?
If you're "in communion" with Him, why can't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Phat, posted 11-26-2016 8:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 12-01-2016 4:45 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 253 of 1864 (795975)
12-20-2016 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
12-01-2016 4:45 PM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:
I believe that God never designed the flaws.
So you don't believe that God created everything.
Phat writes:
...our desire to be free from authority and be our own god(s).
It isn't so much a desire as a need. Remember that Noah needed to build his own ark. His salvation was in his own hands.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 12-01-2016 4:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 12-21-2016 9:09 PM ringo has replied
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 01-14-2017 3:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 259 of 1864 (796102)
12-22-2016 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
12-21-2016 9:09 PM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:
Nobody's salvation is in their own hands...apart from belief and surrender. Good works wont get you there.
Read the story. Noah had to believe God but he had to DO what God said, not just start a personality cult. Faith without works is dead and Noah would have been dead without the works. The works are the indicator that the faith is real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 12-21-2016 9:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 12-23-2016 10:14 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 261 of 1864 (796146)
12-23-2016 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Phat
12-23-2016 10:14 AM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:
The belief is necessary to listen to the instructions.
No it isn't. You judge the instructions on their own merits, regardless of the source. As Paul said, the Gentiles knew what to do without being told by the Hebrew God.
In fact, we can judge the messenger by the message. If the message makes no sense - e.g. regarding the age of the earth - then we need to disregard it.
Phat writes:
People cant just run off doing random works and expect this to be proof of their faith.
It isn't about OUR expectations. We do what we know is right and that's how God judges us.
Phat writes:
To obey requires belief.
Belief in the MESSAGE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 12-23-2016 10:14 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 01-12-2017 10:04 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 264 of 1864 (797287)
01-16-2017 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Phat
01-12-2017 10:04 AM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
As Paul said, the Gentiles knew what to do without being told by the Hebrew God.
If Paul had believed this, he would have had no need to preach Christ.
If he didn't believe it, why did he say it?
Phat writes:
We do not need evidence to choose to believe.
For the umpteenth time, belief is for when there is no evidence.
Phat writes:
... it would be a mistake to wait until the apple falls from the tree and knocks you out rather than choosing to believe in gravity without evidence.
Nonsense. We all accept gravity BECAUSE of evidence. We see things fall and we infer that sitting under suspended objects is a bad idea. Believing in gravity without evidence is no better than believing in gremlins without evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 01-12-2017 10:04 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 265 of 1864 (797288)
01-16-2017 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
01-14-2017 3:02 PM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:
They did not desire to be free from authority.
Who does?
Phat writes:
On the contrary, they listened to authority and did what God said.
Indeed they did. And God told Noah to build his own ark. Noah's salvation was in his own hands.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 01-14-2017 3:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 01-19-2017 10:31 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 267 of 1864 (797384)
01-19-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Phat
01-19-2017 10:31 AM


Re: Authority
Phat writes:
whose authority are you under?
Reality. I'm subject to gravity and friction and aging, so I have to be careful of slipping on the ice. I'm also subject to taxes and prices, so I have to pay my bills to avoid spending all of my time out on the ice.
Why do I need to add a celestial leprechaun to that list?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 01-19-2017 10:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 01-20-2017 6:58 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 269 of 1864 (797430)
01-20-2017 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Phat
01-20-2017 6:58 AM


Re: It's A Wonderful Life in Communion
Phat writes:
You are convinced that you need nothing apart from what you have been given.
No. I'm convinced that I HAVE nothing apart from what I have been given. I am NOT convinced that there IS anything "apart" from what I have been given.
Phat writes:
If GOD is useful as a font of wisdom, why not just seek wise humans?
Any wisdom that supposedly comes from God is filtered through humans - so what's the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 01-20-2017 6:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 01-21-2017 4:41 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 275 of 1864 (797515)
01-23-2017 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Phat
01-21-2017 4:41 AM


Re: It's A Wonderful Life in Communion
Phat writes:
If so, is it possible that all atheists have already been given the opportunity to know God?
In our society, which is awash with talk about gods, everybody has had an opportunity to know God - unless He is deliberately hiding from some of us.
Phat writes:
The next question is why would one prefer to ignore Him? (Stay hypothetical in your answer. ) Just because you lack evidence...is that any reason to ignore Him?
Do you ignore the Loch Ness monster? Leprechauns? The Tooth Fairy?
Answer your own question: Is the lack of evidence for them any reason to not believe in them?
Phat writes:
What is it you would hypothetically want from Him that is any different from what I want from Him?
You're asking the wrong question. You should be asking what you GET from Him that I would want. As far as I can see, you're not GETTING anything that I'm not getting - so why would I put Him in the equation at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 01-21-2017 4:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Phat, posted 01-24-2017 11:26 AM ringo has replied

  
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