Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,411 Year: 3,668/9,624 Month: 539/974 Week: 152/276 Day: 26/23 Hour: 2/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 488 of 948 (797682)
01-25-2017 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by Son Goku
01-25-2017 11:11 AM


Re: Direct evidence
What you offered as support for that was the formula you now claim could be nonsense was it not? Anything else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by Son Goku, posted 01-25-2017 11:11 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by Son Goku, posted 01-25-2017 3:52 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 489 of 948 (797683)
01-25-2017 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by RAZD
01-25-2017 3:18 PM


Re: A game ... The Star Distance Two-step
No, not here, but the two markers are in the same boat, the same time zones (whatever they are) between here and the star.
Ah there is the Achilles heel in your analogy! You DO not have ANY points along the way to a star we can use or refer to. Some mind game exercise pretending we do or could is foolish. Face it. When you get an actual few points we can talk.
As for the absurd sine rule issue, it does not apply to parallax. The reason is because we are not talking about equal lines all being just distance. We are talking time interwoven every centimeter of the way in the base line! It is then hypocritical and totally inappropriate for you to ignore the time aspect and try to use just the space. No can do. Time is not removable! It comes with the territory, the space. In this case the base line.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by RAZD, posted 01-25-2017 3:18 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by RAZD, posted 01-25-2017 5:12 PM creation has replied
 Message 509 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-25-2017 7:17 PM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 490 of 948 (797684)
01-25-2017 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by NoNukes
01-25-2017 1:19 PM


Re: Young earth?
I have no problem using the time and space measure where it applies, fits and can be used. That would NOT include somewhere there is no time as we know it. If you FIRST prove time exists where the star is the very same THEN you can use it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by NoNukes, posted 01-25-2017 1:19 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by NoNukes, posted 01-25-2017 4:40 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 491 of 948 (797685)
01-25-2017 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 484 by Son Goku
01-25-2017 11:17 AM


Re: Moderator Request
I assume time exists the same or with very little difference in the entire solar system, and possibly somewhat beyond. Who knows?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Son Goku, posted 01-25-2017 11:17 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Son Goku, posted 01-25-2017 3:56 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 492 of 948 (797686)
01-25-2017 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by Dr Adequate
01-25-2017 10:24 AM


Re: Moderator Request
The same does not apply when some things are known and some things are not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-25-2017 10:24 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-25-2017 7:09 PM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 493 of 948 (797687)
01-25-2017 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by Coyote
01-25-2017 10:08 AM


Re: Time
If you miss the point of the importance of time in determining the standard cosmological model, not sure I can help you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Coyote, posted 01-25-2017 10:08 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by Coyote, posted 01-25-2017 4:37 PM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 494 of 948 (797688)
01-25-2017 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by RAZD
01-25-2017 8:12 AM


Re: A game ... The Star Distance Two-step
No interference and no moderation of any sort?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by RAZD, posted 01-25-2017 8:12 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by RAZD, posted 01-25-2017 4:33 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 497 of 948 (797691)
01-25-2017 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by New Cat's Eye
01-25-2017 9:50 AM


floundering
What is it about our time that you think causes it to naturally make other things be in it?
The fact that it exists where we happen to be. Therefore what we know includes time, and what we see here.
Cobalt has a half-life where it takes some amount of time for it to decay that we know from our observations here.
It takes some time...think about it. Where does it take time and is seen to take time? Here. In labs, in the earth, solar system... that is where it takes the time we know it to take.
If everything requires time then you cannot question if there is time over THERE for the things that we are observing. Them being things would mean they require time, according to "everything requires time".
Yes I can. Just because we need X amount of time here, does not mean we need X amount for things to happen in some place where there is not that much time. Here things take time and a certain amount of it. In some place where there was no time, praytell, how could things take time to do what they do there?? Would we not time to exist for it to be involved?
Not really, there's a lot more to it. You've over simplified this and are just hand-waving.
Yes really. NO distance to stars without time. Period. Really. No way out of that one. Now quit hand waving and admit it.
This sounds like an issue for you, in particular. You seem to be being threatened by a scientific explanation. What's up with that?
If you get a good scientific explanation for the issue at hand get back to us. At that time we can decide if we feel threatened. I truly doubt it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-25-2017 9:50 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 508 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-25-2017 7:13 PM creation has not replied
 Message 510 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-25-2017 9:31 PM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 498 of 948 (797692)
01-25-2017 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by Son Goku
01-25-2017 3:56 PM


Re: Moderator Request
The signals take so much time to get back to earth. Very predictable. Not really so spooky or unknown.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Son Goku, posted 01-25-2017 3:56 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by Son Goku, posted 01-25-2017 6:11 PM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 499 of 948 (797693)
01-25-2017 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Son Goku
01-25-2017 3:52 PM


Re: Direct evidence
"Could be nonsense" in the sense that whether it is or not is irrelevant to refuting your original comment.
OK so if you find something that certainly is relevant, let us know I guess.
This is getting very exasperating, the formula is a prediction of Relativity with varying time, hence one can see that Relativity does not assume uniform time.
The formula may be incorrect, but it is a formula of Relativity.
When time is built into the formula six ways from Sunday, then don't try to tell us no time is involved. Of course if we add time in as a little T in the mix it will seem to be uniform. That is not testing anything, that is using math for belief based concepts.
Let me try an analogy. If somebody claimed "Herodotus said Persia was nine times the size of Greece" and somebody else said "No, look at page eighty, he says it is five times the size of Greece", that would refute the first statement. However Herodotus's history might still be wrong.
It's the same here, you said "Relativity says time is uniform". I've showed you that relativity doesn't say that. I'm not commenting on Relativity's correctness.
Relativity doesn't even deal with time, it assumes time and uses time in the equations. Time as we know it and think of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Son Goku, posted 01-25-2017 3:52 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by Son Goku, posted 01-25-2017 6:08 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 511 of 948 (797708)
01-25-2017 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by RAZD
01-25-2017 4:25 PM


Re: Does time pass in other star systems.
Not what I've said.
But you do say time is the same. I have to call your bluff.
This is your assertion unsupported by any evidence or reason (how does it change? what causes it to change?).
Does it change? Or cease to exist? Or...when you know, then you can talk. Until then you must repeat the following 'I don't know'.
Your assertion does not disprove time being consistent.
My assertion is that you cannot prove time is the same or even exists persay out there. Just because we see movements does not mean we must have time there as here. My assertion is proven true because you fail to be able to begin to prove or even support your outlandish claim. You need evidence: that is how science is done. Until then no one needs any alternate explanation for your hunches and wild guesses and beliefs.
This is how science works in every branch, in every field, in every laboratory: we make hypothesis and test them, those that fail are discarded, those that don't fail are used to make predictions, and those predictions are then tested.
Big talk NO action! You have not tested each mile to the far stars! If we have about 9.5 trillion km in ONE light year, and a star is say supposedly 10 billion light years away...that is a lot of kms! Your little dice story has many trillions and trillions and trillions and ten thousand times a trillion kms of points in between, of which you have never been to more than the nearest ones to you! There is NO evidence in any branch, field or laboratory that proves an hypothesis correct, that time exists in the far universe and is the same, no less!
The support is provided by all the observations that are consistent with the hypothesis, all the evidence of binary stars and exoplanets around distant stars, by the consilience of information from multiple observations in different fields, observations that provide high confidence that the hypothesis, or something very close to it, is likely correct.
Nothing at all then. There are NO exoplanets that are known if the distances are actually unknown, they exist only by faith. They could be molecular sized, or baseball sized etc far as we know unless we know the distance. That REQUIRES knowing time exists the same every km of the way. You are groping in the dark.
We observe "how things 'operate' in space far away" is consistent with time behaving in a manner consistent with what we observe within the range of our verifiable observations.
In other words 'it seems to us here in time, that time golly gee just must exist everywhere'.
We observe that there is no known cause, no known reason, for time to be inconsistent across the universe.
The universe must be molded to fit the limits of your experience and lack of knowledge about the basics like time? I think not.
Perhaps because the hypothesis is valid and thus we don't observe inconsistencies.
Impossible to have some sort of time inconsistencies here where time exists. Especially ones man can 'observe'. Time is invisible you know.
If the orbits of binary stars or exoplanets varied over observed time, that would be inconsistent with orbits being relatively constant as observed in our solar system.
Atoms have things orbit too, don't they? You do not know the distance therefore the sizes of the so called exoplanets. All you can say is..'something revolves around something somewhere far out in space'! Calling it a planet is religion. Belief. Time must exist there as here to know distance, period. You do NOT actually know ANY cosmic distances outside the solar system, basically. Not to stars.
Now we see the orbits of the objects (however near or far, big or small, we don't know) and HERE those orbits take so much time. That is because time here is a certain way, so whatever we see must take a certain time.
If the red shift of some elements were different from the red shift of other elements, that would be inconsistent.
Time is involved in the shifting of light you know...forget the meaning you formerly assigned to redshift!
If the decay of radioactive isotopes, identified by their location in the spectrum, were significantly different from what we see on earth, or if they varied, changed over time, that would be inconsistent.
Without distances, that loses meaning big time. For all we know what we see decaying is not that far away. But even if it were, we, as was repeated many times now, only see it decay here. The time it takes to decay is our time. If another time or no time existed where the object was, then that decay we see would not be taking the time we experience here!
If there were an hypothesis that time changes in some way different than what the current theory predicts, then that hypothesis could be tested to see how it explains all the known observations and then predicts something new that has yet to be observed, then there might be cause\reason to consider it, but we would still operate on the current system until evidence showed that it was a better explanation.
No you could not run out thousands of trillions of trillions of kms away and test anything. Especially time!
If all you have is an "I I believe time is the same and, hey who can prove me wrong since no one really knows anyhow" chip on your shoulder, then the only one affected by your position is you, and nobody needs to pay attention to you ... or science..because you haven't presented any reason, any cause, any evidence that our current concept of time is valid.
Science operates on evidence,
And you have none. You lose the connection to science!
it develops hypothesis to explain the known evidence,
It does nothing of the sort in reality when dealing with things way way beyond it's abilities, scope, range, and paygrade! Who cares is some nerd sits there smoking a weed pipe and dreaming up ways to explain the universe while being ignorant.
and then predicts new evidence, and it builds on what we know to find out what we don't know. It does not go off on arbitrary tangents.
No one predicted squat about time being the same and a way to test it! get down to reality.
Edited by time, : No reason given.
Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by RAZD, posted 01-25-2017 4:25 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by Coyote, posted 01-25-2017 11:02 PM creation has replied
 Message 519 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-25-2017 11:37 PM creation has replied
 Message 525 by vimesey, posted 01-26-2017 4:44 AM creation has replied
 Message 547 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2017 12:09 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 512 of 948 (797709)
01-25-2017 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by RAZD
01-25-2017 4:33 PM


Re: Great Debate issues
Maybe I'll just copy the OP and shred it to bits on some other forum! After all, the OP should have your case basically mapped out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by RAZD, posted 01-25-2017 4:33 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2017 10:21 AM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 513 of 948 (797710)
01-25-2017 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 503 by NoNukes
01-25-2017 4:40 PM


Re: Young earth?
Not the passage of time there...but the existence of time HERE in spacetime...for the base line.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by NoNukes, posted 01-25-2017 4:40 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2017 6:49 AM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 515 of 948 (797712)
01-25-2017 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by RAZD
01-25-2017 5:12 PM


Re: A game ... The Star Distance Two-step
You do nothing to light trillions of miles away in reality though. Big talk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by RAZD, posted 01-25-2017 5:12 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 516 of 948 (797713)
01-25-2017 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 505 by Son Goku
01-25-2017 6:08 PM


Re: Direct evidence
Tell us about this non uniform time then? Where is it? As for what 'notion' of time a particular theory uses, well, not sure anyone cares. The issue is what can you prove or show hard evidence for that involves the nature of time in the distant universe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by Son Goku, posted 01-25-2017 6:08 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 523 by Son Goku, posted 01-26-2017 3:03 AM creation has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024