Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 517 of 948 (797714)
01-25-2017 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Coyote
01-25-2017 11:02 PM


Re: Does time pass in other star systems.
As I said, I am familiar with all your arguments, and can destroy them out of hand in short order any time. Not even concerned with that. You seem obsessed with a hatred of 'creationists'. Is that part of being fair minded?
By the way, if and when I wanted to introduce a 'young earth' I would not sneak it in, I would ram it through someone's front teeth...so to speak.
Edited by time, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Coyote, posted 01-25-2017 11:02 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by Coyote, posted 01-25-2017 11:12 PM creation has not replied
 Message 520 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-25-2017 11:40 PM creation has not replied
 Message 522 by dwise1, posted 01-26-2017 2:57 AM creation has replied
 Message 524 by dwise1, posted 01-26-2017 3:17 AM creation has not replied
 Message 528 by jar, posted 01-26-2017 7:32 AM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 530 of 948 (797733)
01-26-2017 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 521 by thingamabob
01-26-2017 2:41 AM


Re: Quick word to the wise
Time is the measurement between the events, regardless of where the events occur.
Mankind has determined what the units are that is used where he is at to express the length of duration measured, so as to satisfy his mind.
Man experiences time in a certain way, and it takes so much time for things to happen here. In ancient days, and even today to some extent, the cycles of the sun and moon determine the units or days and months. The length of a day eventually became accepted as so many hours. So, yes, man did fine tune and name the time units but did not invent time. Man works with created nature even today, with such things used for time measurement as radioactive decay.
There is existence.
Who can argue with that?
In that existence there are events that do not happen simultaneously.
In a place where time exists, that is the way it seems, that's for sure. Here, things do take or involve time, we are in time.
That would be true everywhere there was existence.
Everywhere there was time. I don't think we can speak beyond our experience here. You could say something like... 'Because we live in time, it is intuitive to think that time must exist everywhere, we know nothing else'. What you cannot say is that 'millions of trillions of miles beyond where we ever have been, the passage of time happens precisely the same as here'!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by thingamabob, posted 01-26-2017 2:41 AM thingamabob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 535 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-26-2017 9:43 AM creation has replied
 Message 550 by thingamabob, posted 01-26-2017 2:05 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 531 of 948 (797734)
01-26-2017 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 529 by RAZD
01-26-2017 9:26 AM


Re: A game ... The Star Distance Two-step
Absurd. The base line for parallax is usually from earth. No idea what you are talking about as some 'base line' at the SN.
If we take a measure from a point on earth, for example, in June, and another in December, that is six months apart. Six months time. Six months time inside a spacetime that already includes time woven into the very fabric. The space the earth travels is IN spacetime! That means time is involved. Here. Not at the stars.
Edited by time, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2017 9:26 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 532 of 948 (797736)
01-26-2017 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 523 by Son Goku
01-26-2017 3:03 AM


Re: Direct evidence
I asked about what is known about time far away, and whether we know it is the same. Using formulas that involved distance, and mass, and other things all based on time here does not do that. Apparently you need more than the theory of Relativity to do that.
Time is relative! Time is relative to the place time exists and exists a certain way!
Edited by time, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by Son Goku, posted 01-26-2017 3:03 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by Son Goku, posted 01-26-2017 9:47 AM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 533 of 948 (797737)
01-26-2017 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 519 by Dr Adequate
01-25-2017 11:37 PM


Re: Creationist Epistemology
Your argument fails in two ways, any one of which is sufficient to eliminate an argument from scientific discourse.
(1) It can be applied to absolutely anything, not just to stars.
Your stated belief that time exists the same can and is applied to everything in the universe! My more reasonable, honest and open minded approach, on the other hand is not a one size fits all like your preferred belief.
If we allow ourselves to suppose that what we see has no underlying reality behind it, then we can apply this ultra-skepticism just as well to marmalade or owls as to stars. It's just a variant of "what if this is all a dream, and we know nothing of reality?" Well, philosophers may discuss this in their armchairs, but it has no place in science. And it has no place arguing against something in particular, such as stars, when it could be used just as well against anything else.
How about quit 'supposing'?
Let's see what you be knowsing.
(2) If applied to stars, it works equally well (or badly) no matter how real stars are, no matter how much time they undergo, and no matter how well-evidenced all this is.
Like a strawberry custard story then, it applies equally to everything. OK. Not impressive, that.
Now it is the absolute hallmark of a vacuous, worthless argument that its goodness (or badness) is not in any way dependent on what the facts are.
Thanks for shooting your own argument in the foot, saves me time.
Go and find an argument that does depend in some way on the evidence --- if you can.
To be honest about what is known or not is science in a far more real sense than hiding in darkness pretending one knows it all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-25-2017 11:37 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 537 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-26-2017 9:46 AM creation has replied
 Message 545 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-26-2017 10:35 AM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 534 of 948 (797738)
01-26-2017 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 528 by jar
01-26-2017 7:32 AM


Re: Does time pass in other star systems.
Great. I now feel the love. Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by jar, posted 01-26-2017 7:32 AM jar has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 536 of 948 (797740)
01-26-2017 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 522 by dwise1
01-26-2017 2:57 AM


Re: Does time pass in other star systems.
Sorry, don't want to respond to off topic personal posts. If I wanted to deal with the issues you raise, it would be on my time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 522 by dwise1, posted 01-26-2017 2:57 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by dwise1, posted 01-26-2017 10:22 AM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 539 of 948 (797744)
01-26-2017 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 525 by vimesey
01-26-2017 4:44 AM


Re: Does time pass in other star systems.
It boils down to this. When we see things moving from one place to another here, we observe that time passes to allow the change in the spatial coordinates of the objects.
Space and time are interwoven here, if science has it right. Naturally things moving here take time.
When we observe distant planets move around distant stars, the best understanding we have is that time is passing there also.
You canot observe planets unless time exists out there exactly woven with space as it is here though. We absolutely require time to know distance. If the distance to a so called planet is not known, which it is not unless time exists there too, then the object could be almost any size or distance. No way to say it is planet sized at all. None. Total belief based hooey that has been thought of as science til now.
Because that's the best understanding we have here, and nothing we observe operates to invalidate that.
I understand and sympathize. You do the best you can living in the little land of time. From there it all seems a certain way, and no one really forced you to think about it before.
If you want to dislodge that understanding, you have to propose an explanation as to how things move without time passing. And then we have to test that explanation.
Before getting to the distant train stop of Explanation, we need to get a cab to the train station.
Edited by time, : No reason given.
Edited by time, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by vimesey, posted 01-26-2017 4:44 AM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Stile, posted 01-26-2017 12:10 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 540 of 948 (797745)
01-26-2017 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 537 by New Cat's Eye
01-26-2017 9:46 AM


Re: Creationist Epistemology
Some care.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-26-2017 9:46 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 541 of 948 (797746)
01-26-2017 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 535 by New Cat's Eye
01-26-2017 9:43 AM


Re: Quick word to the wise
Well, if they say time does exist exactly as it does in our solar system spacetime on the edges of the universe, they DO say that.
Think of our solar system more as a little timepiece in a big universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-26-2017 9:43 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-26-2017 10:28 AM creation has not replied
 Message 546 by Admin, posted 01-26-2017 11:25 AM creation has replied
 Message 549 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2017 12:46 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 560 of 948 (797834)
01-28-2017 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 557 by RAZD
01-27-2017 2:58 PM


Re: A game ... The Star Distance Two-step
In other words we cannot use the base line from earth and area, because that has time imbedded in it. To use it assumes the other lines have equal time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by RAZD, posted 01-27-2017 2:58 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by RAZD, posted 01-28-2017 7:26 AM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 561 of 948 (797835)
01-28-2017 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 542 by RAZD
01-26-2017 10:21 AM


Re: Great Debate issues
Ah, so you really are scared about debating the issues in this forum?
Understandable, but it won't change the facts.
If I take the time for a demolition derby, I do not want biased mods around.
If you do, please be sure to properly cite and reference it with a proper live link to the thread here, and please ensure that it is one that I am able to post on freely.
Of course.
Note that I will then copy your replies to a new thread here and shred your arguments here. You will of course have the opportunity to reply, but you won't have the privilege of being the only one that you would have on the The Great Debate forum. If you want I can start a new thread in that forum to post your comments and my replies so that you do have that privilege.
Ha you like to make little rules eh? Good luck with that.
This could be an interesting experiment in cross forum debate, and it could introduce many more people to my arguments. Might even bring some new people here.
Flatter yourself all you like. I find your arguments second rate. Passe.
ps -- I have set up the new thread at The Age of the Earth Great Debate, RAZD and time (only) in Proposed New Topics but it needs to be promoted to The Great Debate before you can comment. Just tell Percy that you want to participate and he can promote it.
Ha. I see you really think you have a chance. Kind of a little sad. But I guess you need to learn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2017 10:21 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 575 by RAZD, posted 01-28-2017 7:57 AM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 562 of 948 (797836)
01-28-2017 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by dwise1
01-26-2017 10:22 AM


Re: Does time pass in other star systems.
My claim is that you cannot prove time exists in the far universe. You may drift off into delusion if you like. But it is what it is, and you ain't got the goods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by dwise1, posted 01-26-2017 10:22 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 568 by Riggamortis, posted 01-28-2017 1:48 AM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 563 of 948 (797837)
01-28-2017 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by Admin
01-26-2017 11:25 AM


Re: Dwise1 and NewCatsEye Suspended 24 Hours
You are on trail here not me. You all show that you cannot evidence your claims about time existing in the far universe.
I accept time here on earth. I live it. I experience it. I accept time from the space station, we know there is time involved and how much in communications and such. I accept time in the solar system because we know how long it tales for light or communication to get around here. I do not accept it anywhere else until we get evidence. We see light from stars but not time.
There is no way to cross check what time in inherent in light from stars that arrives here. There are ways to check info from probes generally.
Edited by time, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by Admin, posted 01-26-2017 11:25 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-29-2017 12:12 PM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 564 of 948 (797838)
01-28-2017 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 548 by Stile
01-26-2017 12:10 PM


Re: A bridge to the stars
An apple fell on Newton's head. Time never fell on his head. Certainly not time in the distant universe. Try to stop patting your science on the back long enough to admit you do not know here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Stile, posted 01-26-2017 12:10 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by Stile, posted 01-30-2017 8:41 AM creation has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024