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Author Topic:   CREATIONIST
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5561
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1 of 9 (798525)
02-03-2017 4:31 AM


I am proposing this new topic so Dwise1 can have a creationist to ask questions about his Biblical belief and show him where they are wrong or at least do not agree with what is observed or can be reproduced in a lab.

I will start with His post in Message 31.

Dwise1 writes:

It is truly an occupational hazard when you try to deal with creationists. I've been doing it since the mid-1980's; what about you? We have seen so much creationist dishonesty and deception that every time a new creationist shows up we see it all again. Kind of like the trap that cops can fall into (my son is a cop) in that they see so much of the dregs of society and the worst of the worst that they look for it in everybody they meet. That is a very heavy burden.
On my site, I had tried to analyze creationist behavior. Now mind you, that can be very difficult when you are never able to get any feedback from creationists, so there's not much chance to test your hypotheses. I tried to look at their experience level as an indicator. Most creationists have had little to no experience outside of their religious community, so they are still very na´ve. They actually think that their claims and arguments are valid. Experience teaches them otherwise. The inexperienced ones will be more candid, while the more experienced ones will be more guarded, cagier. That is because the less experienced creationists still believe that their claims are true while the more experienced ones know that they are not, so they have to lie more and avoid actually discussing their claims. Needless to say, the more experienced the creationist is, the less likely that he would enter a forum such as this. An experienced creationist would be much more interested in avoiding any discussion of his claims, since he knows that his claims are false -- though theologically he could never actually admit that to himself. Therefore, the most likely new creationists that we would expect to join our forum would be the inexperienced ones. The experienced ones know to steer far clear of us.

I am a creationist who believes in the Bible account of creation and believe it to be factual and am prepared to defend that position.

Bible Study please,

God Bless


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 02-03-2017 7:12 AM ICANT has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12388
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 2 of 9 (798530)
02-03-2017 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
02-03-2017 4:31 AM


I think a thread about anything in either Biblical or creationist belief is far too broad. Is there something in particular you'd like to discuss?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2017 4:31 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2017 11:29 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2017 2:04 PM Admin has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5561
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3 of 9 (798551)
02-03-2017 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
02-03-2017 7:12 AM


Hi Admin

I was proposing the topic as Dwise1 had made a statement concerning getting answers from a Creationist. That since 1980 he had not found a creationist that would defend their beliefs.

The only limits I would put on the questions is that they would have to be limited to the first 2 chapters of Genesis according to the KJV Bible unless he is versed in Hebrew if so we could use that. Anyone else is free to ask any questions they have for a creationist.

My view and beliefs are well known here but it seems he an others here have questions they can't get an answer for.

I am making myself available to answer those questions, from a literal creationist view.

ABE

Dwise1 writes:

We have seen so much creationist dishonesty and deception that every time a new creationist shows up we see it all again.

This statement is the one that really caught my attention and caused me to make my post.
God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 02-03-2017 7:12 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5561
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 4 of 9 (798569)
02-03-2017 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
02-03-2017 7:12 AM


Hi Percy,

Dwise1 had made the statements:

Dwise1 writes:

It is truly an occupational hazard when you try to deal with creationists. I've been doing it since the mid-1980's; what about you? We have seen so much creationist dishonesty and deception that every time a new creationist shows up we see it all again.

The experienced ones know to steer far clear of us.

Since he had made those statements and especially the last one I decided to make myself available to explain any question he might have about Biblical Creation.

Since I am a Biblical Creationist believing in the literal interpretation of God's Word, I decided to accept his invitation and not steer clear of a discussion.

I would like for him or anyone else to ask any question they have concerning the Genesis account of creation found in the first two chapters of Genesis in the KJV Bible, that any literal Biblical Creationist would agree with. I may at times mention the Hebrew text.

I hope that narrows it down enough for this discussion. The problem will be to keep everyone in line as they will be telling me what they have argued for and against for the past 30 + years.

ABE my earlier post was not showing until I made the second post but I will leave them both.
God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 02-03-2017 7:12 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Admin, posted 02-03-2017 2:41 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12388
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 5 of 9 (798579)
02-03-2017 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ICANT
02-03-2017 2:04 PM


I'll consider for promotion any proposal that follows the Forum Guidelines, especially this guideline:

  1. When introducing a new topic, please keep the message narrowly focused. Do not include more than a few points.

I reject Dwise1's conclusion that creationists are dishonest and deceptive. I believe they possess integrity and conviction and all other human qualities good and bad in equal measure as all human beings. In facing the incongruence of sincere and honest people who understand yet reject science in favor of ancient folktales Dwise1 concludes base motives. I disagree, and that's why this website exists, to discuss the science in detail point by point.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2017 2:04 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12388
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 6 of 9 (798585)
02-03-2017 3:10 PM


Note From Dwise1
Dwise1 posted a PM to me explaining that he was making a different point than what ICANT wants to discuss. Dwise1's point is a bit nuanced, so rather than try to capture his meaning in my own words I'll just post the main portion of what he said:

Dwise1 PM writes:

ICANT is proposing something completely different from what I was talking about. I don't care about biblical beliefs nor have any problem with them except when they cause big problems. One such big problem is the YEC belief that if the earth turns out to be old after all, then the Bible is just one big lie and should be thrown into the trash and we should all become atheists -- that is literally what one creationist insisted upon adamantly a couple decades ago.

What I was talking about was creationists' beliefs of what the consequences should be when they discover that their young-earth beliefs are false. What I keep hearing is as I just described: that would disprove the existence of God. I would challenge that belief. All that is proven by finding that your theology contains error is that it has gotten some things wrong. What you should do in response to finding that error should be to correct that error, along with doing some rethinking. What you should not do is to throw away your entire theology. This is especially important because of the very nature of theology: theologies are Man-made and therefore are imperfect and of course they contain error.

Those are the kinds of things I want to discuss with creationists. Of course, examining their young-earth claims with them is interesting, but they don't like that at all because of their mistaken beliefs about the consequences of their claims being wrong. I have found that with experience a creationist begins to realize that his claims are wrong or at least very weak and therefore learns to avoid discussing them.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2017 3:56 PM Admin has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5561
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 7 of 9 (798590)
02-03-2017 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Admin
02-03-2017 3:10 PM


Re: Note From Dwise1
Hi Percy,

Dwise1 writes:

I have found that with experience a creationist begins to realize that his claims are wrong or at least very weak and therefore learns to avoid discussing them.

I am a creationist.

I take offense to the above statement as I believe what the Bible says about creation is true and agrees with science.

If no one wants to examine the creation facts as presented in the Bible that is fine with me.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Admin, posted 02-03-2017 3:10 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Admin, posted 02-03-2017 4:59 PM ICANT has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12388
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 8 of 9 (798598)
02-03-2017 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
02-03-2017 3:56 PM


Re: Note From Dwise1
If I divine his meaning, Dwise1 would be more interested in a discussion about creationist thinking on the implications if they are wrong.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2017 3:56 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2017 8:29 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5561
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 9 of 9 (798618)
02-03-2017 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Admin
02-03-2017 4:59 PM


Re: Note From Dwise1
Hi Percy,

Why would anybody want to have a debate with someone who has no scriptural basis to ground their belief on.

That is a total waste of time

If he would like I could show why the YEC position is not supported by the Bible or Science.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Admin, posted 02-03-2017 4:59 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
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