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Junior Member (Idle past 2637 days) Posts: 6 From: United States Joined: |
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Author | Topic: A question about evolution | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
It is truly an occupational hazard when you try to deal with creationists. I've been doing it since the mid-1980's; what about you? We have seen so much creationist dishonesty and deception that every time a new creationist shows up we see it all again. Kind of like the trap that cops can fall into (my son is a cop) in that they see so much of the dregs of society and the worst of the worst that they look for it in everybody they meet. That is a very heavy burden.
On my site, I had tried to analyze creationist behavior. Now mind you, that can be very difficult when you are never able to get any feedback from creationists, so there's not much chance to test your hypotheses. I tried to look at their experience level as an indicator. Most creationists have had little to no experience outside of their religious community, so they are still very nave. They actually think that their claims and arguments are valid. Experience teaches them otherwise. The inexperienced ones will be more candid, while the more experienced ones will be more guarded, cagier. That is because the less experienced creationists still believe that their claims are true while the more experienced ones know that they are not, so they have to lie more and avoid actually discussing their claims. Needless to say, the more experienced the creationist is, the less likely that he would enter a forum such as this. An experienced creationist would be much more interested in avoiding any discussion of his claims, since he knows that his claims are false -- though theologically he could never actually admit that to himself. Therefore, the most likely new creationists that we would expect to join our forum would be the inexperienced ones. The experienced ones know to steer far clear of us. Frankly, I think that Micah is genuine. He appears to be very young, maybe high school or early college. He appears to still be mainly immersed in his fundamentalist nonsense.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2268 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
I think Eskimos have relatively dark skin because they are derived from the same stock as American Indians. Sunlight and diet are probably minor factors. I.e founder effect.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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I have been dealing with them since late '90's online. I first dealt with them in college in the early '80's. I went to a Catholic college and there were a fair bit of students that had been fed fundie doctrine, mostly at by parish priests and lay people. The nuns and priests at the college were the most scientifically literate people I have ever known.
In the 12 years I have been here, numerous times I have seen the bible school kid fulfilling class requirements by engaging and attacking atheists. It is old, boring and offensive. Micah is obviously inexperienced, or a good troll, but his initial OP was more of the same. In 2017 we still have people that equate science with atheism. I guess the Trumpster fire we have is inevitable.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Micah8294 writes:
Christianity is a major source of atheism.
I've been born into a Christian household and raised a Christian. So that "God exists in the back of my head" feeling will never go away I'm sure of it, I will always think someone is watching.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1050 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
Caffeine--You said essentially the same thing I did. If you think so, then I expressed myself poorly, since these seem like different ideas to me. You suggested that there was no selection for lighter skin because insolation was so low that this would not have helped with vitamin D production anyway. I suggested that there was no selection for lighter skin since vitamin D requirements were already met by diet. They're not mutually exclusive, but they're not the same either.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2132 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
You suggested that there was no selection for lighter skin because insolation was so low that this would not have helped with vitamin D production anyway. I suggested that there was no selection for lighter skin since vitamin D requirements were already met by diet. We're both saying the same things. Lighter skin can provide Vitamin D only to a certain latitude, and beyond that point it must come from diet. For groups like the Eskimo there would be no selection pressure for lighter skin. My quip about nude sunbathing not being popular among the Eskimos was just that--a quip.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I think Eskimos have relatively dark skin because they are derived from the same stock as American Indians. Sunlight and diet are probably minor factors. I.e founder effect. And the skin color for the American Indians? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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CRR Member (Idle past 2268 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
@NoNukes.
The same stock as Amer-indians means the ancestors of both probably migrated from Asia across the Bering Strait land bridge. The American Indian skin colour was traditionally called red, but that was relative to other skin colours and not fire engine red. We are all part of a continuum of skin colour and it's not a black and white issue in most cases. White Europeans still have a variation in skin colour but they are typically a much lighter shade than "red' Amer-indians or "black" Africans. Truly, colour is only skin deep.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Yes, I am looking for a debate. But as far as my question goes it's pretty reasonably been anwered. I just think that human interaction and dialogue helps me understand better than a Google search. That's the whole reason I joined the forum. And yet we haven't heard anything from you for six days, nearly a week. For that matter, none of your three responses said anything about our responses to your question except your final "Thank you all for your answers". No reaction, no further questions, no request for clarification on anything. It is as if you actually had absolutely no interest in your question nor in answers to your question. Curious. And then given your love of Hovind, I presented you with two of Hovind's claims, copied verbatim, and asked what you thought of them. You completely ignored them. Quite curious. There is a lot that we'd like to discuss with you. You claim to be "looking for a debate." I would very much rather have a discussion, but if all you want to do is argue then that's your choice and I will engage with you. We offer you want you say you want, yet you are suddenly completely disinterested. Curiouser and curiouser. So let's talk.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 995 From: Central Florida, USA Joined:
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White Europeans still have a variation in skin colour but they are typically a much lighter shade than "red' Amer-indians or "black" Africans. Truly, colour is only skin deep. Exactly true. For people like myself who are of Greek heritage, we are often referred to as 'olive skinned'. While we are classified as 'white', clearly we are a shade darker than those from northern climates like the UK, Ireland or the Scandinavian countries. And the primary difference is ultimately latitude and climate. Northerly climates are more overcast and colder, which denotes selective pressures would favor skin tones that absorb more light. While those in the Mediterranean areas would evolve to have slightly darker skin since sunlight is more prevalent. Note that even among darker skinned individuals, there are wide variances as well. Clearly, those in the Indian subcontinent have a different shade versus those in Africa. And parts of Africa likely have variances among their populations as well. Asian countries also have variances as well. People in Japan versus those in Cambodia or Vietnam will have different skin tones. A photographer in the UK did a nice collage of all the different skin tones she found. See following image:
Also a great example of why racism is so friggen stupid.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2132 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Also a great example of why racism is so friggen stupid. Exactly. But it gets worse, as there are quite a few of what are referred to as "classical" racial traits that have similar clines from one extreme to the other, and there is often minimal correlation between those traits and skin color. Geography is a more important determinant than descent in the long run.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
I'd like to at least know what kind of grade he got.
I wonder if he is the guy by the same name from Lima, OH, that has(had?)a mime ministry. https://twitter.com/micahzencho
I think Zencho is supposed to be a cute play on Chosen. I couldn't find any more info on Zencho ministries.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
I have to admit that Micah's appearance here certainly smells that way. Which raises a few questions in my mind about those assignments:
One of our greatest problems is that we get next to zero feedback from creationists. That means that virtually everything we know about creationists is what we can observe of their actions, of their behavior. Extremely little of that is at all favorable. I really want to be able to engage young-earth creationists in some kind of dialog. So far that has proven to be impossible. I would really like to engage Micah in a discussion. Whether that could possibly happen is entirely up to him.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Diomedes writes: Australia (a country of which I'm a proud citizen), used to have the White Australia Policy. In the early days only people from Northern Europe were classified as white and could move there. Exactly true. For people like myself who are of Greek heritage, we are often referred to as 'olive skinned'. After WW2, they realised that they really, really needed more people and began to allow immigration from Southern Europe, too. They called and still call those guys Wogs in private (Greeks, Italians, etc.). Off-white, I guess. It was only from around 1967 that they started allowing people from other continents in. The guys who fought that change in policy presented the argument against it as: Two Wongs don't make a White. Good old days. Luckily before my time...
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The same stock as Amer-indians means the ancestors of both probably migrated from Asia across the Bering Strait land bridge. My question was regarding the origin of skin colors which are inheritable. Absent some Lamarkian explanation, inheritable traits would come from mutation/selection/drift. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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