Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 120 (8763 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-23-2017 4:46 PM
332 online now:
caffeine, Coyote, DrJones*, ICANT, ooh-child, PaulK, Tangle, Taq (8 members, 324 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: aristotle
Post Volume:
Total: 811,945 Year: 16,551/21,208 Month: 2,440/3,593 Week: 553/882 Day: 71/103 Hour: 4/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123
4
5Next
Author Topic:   A question about evolution
CRR
Member
Posts: 334
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 46 of 70 (799218)
02-08-2017 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by NoNukes
02-08-2017 5:02 AM


the origin of skin colors which are inheritable.

There really is only one skin colour; brown. This is caused by melanin and depending on how much we have we can vary from white (little melanin) to black (lots of melanin). This is controlled by several genes giving about 64 shades of brown.

The theory that best fits the facts is that Adam and Eve were created with 2 alleles for each of these genes so they had the genetic potential for all skin colours. Their children would have had a variety of skin colours. Some black, some white, some in between. Assuming random pairing in this generation some couples would have had both black, both white, or some mixture. This would then have created families where some had skin colour predominately at both ends of the range.

So how did we get races with different skin colours? Perhaps an event that divided the population into family groups, some white, some black, most in between. The Tower of Babel meets that requirement. The new languages groups would have kept families together and locked skin colours into language groups. As these groups spread out they took their new languages and skin colours with them.

Selection and drift could then have acted to reduce variation within each group.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2017 5:02 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Tangle, posted 02-08-2017 6:45 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 51 by caffeine, posted 02-08-2017 3:37 PM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 02-09-2017 2:22 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 53 by Pressie, posted 02-09-2017 4:20 AM CRR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4763
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


(3)
Message 47 of 70 (799219)
02-08-2017 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by CRR
02-08-2017 6:31 AM


You have to admire a mind that can conflate myth, magic with half understood, confused, science and a childish world image to create a pseudoscientific primitive belief mash-up.

Apart from it being both bad religion, bad science and utter twaddle of course.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by CRR, posted 02-08-2017 6:31 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Riggamortis, posted 02-08-2017 8:16 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 50 by Diomedes, posted 02-08-2017 9:52 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 111
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


(7)
Message 48 of 70 (799224)
02-08-2017 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Tangle
02-08-2017 6:45 AM


The best part
Denies evolution occurred, uses evolution to explain everything but the special magic parts 😂
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Tangle, posted 02-08-2017 6:45 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 628
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 49 of 70 (799228)
02-08-2017 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Pressie
02-08-2017 3:33 AM


After WW2, they realised that they really, really needed more people and began to allow immigration from Southern Europe, too. They called and still call those guys Wogs in private (Greeks, Italians, etc.). Off-white, I guess.

Interesting that you mention that because my Greek father has a whole slew of first cousins that live in Australia. Most emigrated there after WW2 as you said. Also in the aftermath of the Greek civil war.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Pressie, posted 02-08-2017 3:33 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 628
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 50 of 70 (799230)
02-08-2017 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Tangle
02-08-2017 6:45 AM


Apart from it being both bad religion, bad science and utter twaddle of course.

quote:
Twaddle

ˈtwädl
informal
noun
1.
trivial or foolish speech or writing; nonsense.
"he dismissed the novel as self-indulgent twaddle"
verb archaic
1.
talk or write in a trivial or foolish way.
"what is that old fellow twaddling about?"


Heard that word so many times on EVC. Always wondered what it meant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Tangle, posted 02-08-2017 6:45 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1284
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 51 of 70 (799261)
02-08-2017 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by CRR
02-08-2017 6:31 AM


The theory that best fits the facts is that Adam and Eve were created with 2 alleles for each of these genes so they had the genetic potential for all skin colours. Their children would have had a variety of skin colours. Some black, some white, some in between. Assuming random pairing in this generation some couples would have had both black, both white, or some mixture. This would then have created families where some had skin colour predominately at both ends of the range.

So how did we get races with different skin colours? Perhaps an event that divided the population into family groups, some white, some black, most in between. The Tower of Babel meets that requirement. The new languages groups would have kept families together and locked skin colours into language groups. As these groups spread out they took their new languages and skin colours with them.

I see two primary flaws with your model.

Firstly, Adam and Eve's alleles are not enough. Take the MC1R gene. The 'M' stands for melanin, and this is a gene we know plays a role in pigmentation in mammals, including humans. Now, in your model, there are at most four alleles of MC1R in humans - two each from Adam and Eve. In the real world, we know there are many many more. Here's a study looking at the role played by some variants of MC1R in skin cancer risk. They genotyped less than 2000 people, all of them in eastern Spain, and identified 53 variant forms of the gene.

The second problem is that skin colour is not randomly distributed around the world as if it was some historical accident. Rather, skin colour is strongly correlated with levels of UV radiation. There is no reason for this to be the case in your model; but it is elegantly explained as an evolutionary adaptation.

Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by CRR, posted 02-08-2017 6:31 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9649
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 52 of 70 (799303)
02-09-2017 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by CRR
02-08-2017 6:31 AM


The theory that best fits the facts is that Adam and Eve were created with 2 alleles for each of these genes so they had the genetic potential for all skin colours.

Your theory is nonsense. Even some folks with the same skin color have that color because of different alleles. Four alleles cannot and do not explain reality.

Secondly, there is more than one variety of melanin, with the varieties having different colors, so saying that there is only one pigment is just wrong. See pheomelanin and eumelanin.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by CRR, posted 02-08-2017 6:31 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Coyote, posted 02-09-2017 10:26 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1621
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 53 of 70 (799310)
02-09-2017 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by CRR
02-08-2017 6:31 AM


CRR writes:

There really is only one skin colour; brown. This is caused by melanin and depending on how much we have we can vary from white (little melanin) to black (lots of melanin). This is controlled by several genes giving about 64 shades of brown.

This gets me wondering. Do people with darker skin colour have more or less genetic information than people with lighter skin colour?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by CRR, posted 02-08-2017 6:31 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by CRR, posted 03-03-2017 4:56 AM Pressie has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5861
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 54 of 70 (799331)
02-09-2017 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by NoNukes
02-09-2017 2:22 AM


Your theory is nonsense.

Exactly.

There is another source of variation--skin thickness.

If I remember a graduate course in Human Races from a while back, groups like the Bushmen of Southern Africa have thicker skins, which contributes in part to perceived skin color.

And Adam & Eve are religious myths, and can't be used to address scientific problems. Might as well use the Easter Bunny as a data point.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 02-09-2017 2:22 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by AZPaul3, posted 02-09-2017 6:53 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 55 of 70 (799383)
02-09-2017 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Coyote
02-09-2017 10:26 AM




This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Coyote, posted 02-09-2017 10:26 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by CRR, posted 03-03-2017 4:57 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 334
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 56 of 70 (801069)
03-03-2017 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Pressie
02-09-2017 4:20 AM


Do people with darker skin colour have more or less genetic information than people with lighter skin colour?

Generally the same. They have the same number of functional genes. However I have read that red hair is due to a defect in the MC1R gene so there would be a loss of genetic information in that case.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Pressie, posted 02-09-2017 4:20 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Pressie, posted 03-03-2017 7:05 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 334
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 57 of 70 (801070)
03-03-2017 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by AZPaul3
02-09-2017 6:53 PM


Step 2
Evolution did it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by AZPaul3, posted 02-09-2017 6:53 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Pressie, posted 03-03-2017 6:53 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 59 by AZPaul3, posted 03-03-2017 6:54 AM CRR has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1621
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 58 of 70 (801076)
03-03-2017 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by CRR
03-03-2017 4:57 AM


Re: Step 2
So, CRR, you still couldn't provide us on the quanties on how to decide whether lighter skinned humans have more or less genetic information than darker skinned people.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by CRR, posted 03-03-2017 4:57 AM CRR has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 59 of 70 (801078)
03-03-2017 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by CRR
03-03-2017 4:57 AM


Re: Step 2
However I have read that red hair is due to a defect in the MC1R gene so there would be a loss of genetic information in that case.

A loss of information or different information like with skin color? Is it really a defect or just a difference? A different allele? I think your use of the word "defect" is intentionally loaded.

Evolution did it.

Yes, it did. No Easter Bunny necessary. Glad you agree.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by CRR, posted 03-03-2017 4:57 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by CRR, posted 03-03-2017 7:01 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 334
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 60 of 70 (801083)
03-03-2017 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by AZPaul3
03-03-2017 6:54 AM


Re: Step 2
"An MC1R that is hitting on all cylinders keeps red hair away. So it makes sense that people with red hair usually have an MC1R gene that has a small difference in it that keeps it from working quite right." http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask400
This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by AZPaul3, posted 03-03-2017 6:54 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by AZPaul3, posted 03-03-2017 7:13 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Prev123
4
5Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017