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Author Topic:   Trump's order on immigration and the wacko liberal response
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 107 of 993 (798161)
01-31-2017 1:23 PM


Queeny
Just as a by-the-by, Trump's brainfart on immigration is causing considerable trouble here in the UK. The invitation of a full state visit is being protested - 1.7 million signature asking for it to be stopped in little over 24 hours. It now has to be debated in Parliament.
Old Queeny has had to hold her nose whilst greeting some appalling people so she'll deal with it professionally but it's all very embarrassing. It seems likely that it will be delayed a few months for the smell to fade a little - I suspect Donald will stamp his little feet.
Continentally Europe is equally appalled.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 469 of 993 (799115)
02-07-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by ringo
02-07-2017 12:21 PM


Re: jurisdiction
Ringo writes:
As I understand it, in Canadian law (and most civilized jurisdictions) self-defense is not a "natural right" but a mitigating factor - i.e. your punishment may be less if you acted in self-defense.
Self-defense is more usually a legal defence - ie. if you can demonstrate that you had good reason to feel in danger of physical harm and used reasonable force to defend against it, you are not guilty of a crime.
If you used unreasonable force, the fact that you we're attacked may be a mitigating factor, but if you chased after a burglar and stabbed him 20 times in the back, you can't hope for much sympathy - in the UK at least.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by ringo, posted 02-07-2017 12:21 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 582 of 993 (799353)
02-09-2017 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by Faith
02-09-2017 12:13 PM


Re: sovereignty
Faith writes:
I'm all for the rule of law, until .....
.....it decides something I don't like.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by Faith, posted 02-09-2017 12:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 714 of 993 (799581)
02-11-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 713 by ringo
02-11-2017 10:47 AM


Re: jurisdiction
ringo writes:
Maybe you can give some examples of where that has ever happened.
Well there's quite a few here:
Self-defence: What's acceptable under Canadian law? | CBC News
But I don't know why you're still pursuing this; the self-defence defence is fairly standard in most jusidictions. If you can show that you acted to protect yourself you either won't be charged or you'll be found not guilty at trial. But you must be acting reasonably and not excessively.
If you do act beyond what is reasonable you may be able to mitigate your sentence by demonstrating that 'he started it' or 'I lost my temper and couldn't control myself' etc But you're still guilty of assault or worse.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by ringo, posted 02-11-2017 10:47 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by ringo, posted 02-11-2017 11:16 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 716 of 993 (799589)
02-11-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 715 by ringo
02-11-2017 11:16 AM


Re: jurisdiction
ringo writes:
That's not letting them off scot-free
It is you know :-) it's about establishing guilt or otherwise according to the principles of the law. It's a binary choice. Guilty or not guilty.
Reasonable self-defence is a statutary defence in law. To succeed at trial for a not-guilty verdict the defence has to show that reasonable force was used. That's it. If they can do that, the verdict is not guilty. Nothing to do with mitigation.
Yes, BUT. If you can not convince the court that you acted reasonably - and the onus is on YOU - you can be convicted of a lesser charge.
No, this is just wrong. You are charged with an offense of say, assault, tried for the offence of assault and found either guilty or not guilty of assault.
Sometimes you can be charged and tried for say, murder or manslaughter. The successful statutory defence of self defence would find you not guilty of both. The charge would not drop from murder to manslaughter. The lessor charge of manslauter would normally be chosen by the jury only if the prosecution failed to prove a different element of the offence, usually intent - he killed him, but he didn't mean to.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
I think you're confusing being charged and found guilty or not guilty at trial, with what happens after you've been found guilty and are being sentenced. The first involves the statutory defence of self-defence which can get you off 'scot-free' the second is mitigation which is used by your brilliant lawyer to reduce the sentence because the jury didn't believe that tying your attacker to a chair and attaching an arc welder to his testicles was reasonable self-defence..
I'm not pursuing anything. I'm being pursued.
That's life here I guess :-)
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 715 by ringo, posted 02-11-2017 11:16 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 719 by ringo, posted 02-12-2017 1:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 722 of 993 (799641)
02-12-2017 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 719 by ringo
02-12-2017 1:19 PM


Re: jurisdiction
ringo writes:
No it isn't.
Yes it is.
Your own example says that the prosecutors, "went ahead with the other charges." They could have been convicted on the other charges, even if they weren't. The prosecutors had a backup plan to prevent them from getting off scot-free, as they always would.
The way it works is that the prosecution service put a charge to trial if they believe that it has a more than 50% chance of succeeding with a jury AND they believe it is in the public interest to do so. In the example they dropped the kidnapping charge because - we assume - it didn't pass that test. There's no reason to suppose there was any thought of a lessor charge at this stage because of some kind of mitigation. That's simply not part of the decision to prosecute. If, after being found guilty, there are reasons why the offender shouldn't feel the full weight of the punishment, they are raised at sentencing.
(Another reason for dropping a higher tariff charge to a lessor one is a plea bargain - this obviously didn't happen here as it was a not guilty plea.)
I realize that the term "mitigation" has a specific connotation in legalese. I wasn't using it that way. If you have a better term for what actually happens, I'm all ears.
Sorry, that's the word. There is no word for what you're trying to say because the law doesn't work the way you think it does.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 719 by ringo, posted 02-12-2017 1:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 724 by ringo, posted 02-12-2017 1:58 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 725 of 993 (799649)
02-12-2017 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 724 by ringo
02-12-2017 1:58 PM


Re: jurisdiction
ringo writes:
Prosecutors don't waste the taxpayers' money on one magical charge and say, "Oh dearie me, better luck next time," if it fails.
That's correct and I gave you their decision making principles. They don't include mitigation.
I'm just going by what I see in the news, and your own examples.
Yup, that's why you're getting it wrong.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 724 by ringo, posted 02-12-2017 1:58 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 726 by ringo, posted 02-12-2017 2:39 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 727 of 993 (799653)
02-12-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 726 by ringo
02-12-2017 2:39 PM


Re: jurisdiction
ringo writes:
What you think you know about the universal, world-wide "decision-making principles" of all prosecutors doesn't seem to agree with the facts.
Well I've given you the bare bones of how it's done in the UK. Canada adopts most of our legal processes but if you think you know better.....
Here's the full gen. No doubt you can find your equivalent.
The Code for Crown Prosecutors | The Crown Prosecution Service

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 726 by ringo, posted 02-12-2017 2:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 728 by ringo, posted 02-13-2017 10:58 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 783 of 993 (806000)
04-22-2017 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 782 by Faith
04-22-2017 3:04 AM


Looks like a great argument for gun control to me.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 782 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 3:04 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 784 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 3:27 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 785 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 8:02 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 786 of 993 (806008)
04-22-2017 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 785 by Faith
04-22-2017 8:02 AM


Religions are what leaders tell their followers they are. Throughout all time religions have killed and persecuted, raised armies and taxes, been persecuted, been obliterated, been invented etc etc
There's nothing very special about Islam. It's yet another daft belief being exploited.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 785 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 8:02 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 787 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 8:35 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 790 of 993 (806017)
04-22-2017 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 787 by Faith
04-22-2017 8:35 AM


Faith writes:
This has been answered a million times already. How you hold on to that vicious canard I don't know.
Yeh, yeh, your belief is different, we know.
I was reminded yesterday that the English Protestant church is the second largest landowner in the UK. It's fairly quiescent now being reformed but back in the day land ownership was power. The meek, apparently, do not inherit the earth.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 8:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 791 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 9:28 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 792 of 993 (806023)
04-22-2017 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 791 by Faith
04-22-2017 9:28 AM


Faith writes:
You mean the Anglican Church? Or which "English Protestant Church?"
I mean the Church of England.
If the Anglican, they inherited most of their property from the RCC didn't they?
'Inherited' is an interesting word. Stolen with violence is more accurate.
Great wealth is certainly contrary to the spirit of Christ. At least if it is hoarded and not used for His purposes.
Yes, but it always has been used like that and it's being used like that now. I was in the US last week I listened to an Evangelical praising the Lord and demanding money. Same old snake oil, slightly newer pot.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 791 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 9:28 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 793 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 10:08 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 794 of 993 (806025)
04-22-2017 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 793 by Faith
04-22-2017 10:08 AM


I think you missed my edit

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 793 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 10:08 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 811 of 993 (806127)
04-23-2017 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 808 by Faith
04-23-2017 4:36 AM


Re: wondering
Faith writes:
First you are confusing the Roman Catholic church with Christianity.
There are 38,000 flavours of Christians. You do not personally get to say who's a Christian and who isn't. There's no point keeping on doing it because you'll be reminded of it every time you attempt it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by Faith, posted 04-23-2017 4:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 812 by Faith, posted 04-23-2017 5:53 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 813 of 993 (806129)
04-23-2017 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 812 by Faith
04-23-2017 5:53 AM


Re: wondering
Faith writes:
Of course others have other definitions, but I don't know why you prefer those to mine.
Because yours is a definition created by the sect you prefer. I prefer historic definitions that are supported by the majority of historians and people.
Here's a sampling of preachers of the persuasion I consider true
Why would I have any interest in that? I consider your entire belief system utterly bonkers.
You can believe what you want of course, nobody is stopping you. But I'm sure I'm not going to stop saying what true Christianity is.
It's not what I believe or don't believe - remember I'm a atheist, I have no regard for any of them being the 'true' one. I accept the standard definition. The definition of Christianity is pretty easy to get to, they all have a belief that Christ in the son of god. Daft though that is, it's what defines them all - including you.
And saying that the largest Christian sect - 1.2bn people - who define themselves as Christians are not Christians even though they follow the teaching of Christ and read the same mythology as you is quite frankly rediculous.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 812 by Faith, posted 04-23-2017 5:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 819 by Faith, posted 04-23-2017 10:18 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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