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Author Topic:   Assumptions involved in scientific dating
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 54 of 222 (799830)
02-16-2017 11:14 AM


Bump (again) for creationist input
To those creationists who say radiocarbon dating is invalid because of "assumptions" -- here's your big chance!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Diomedes, posted 02-16-2017 1:09 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 56 of 222 (799847)
02-16-2017 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Diomedes
02-16-2017 1:09 PM


Re: Bump (again) for creationist input
I looked at that creationliberty article you cited.
Just the usual creationist nonsense. That same stuff is all over the web on creationist websites. Nonsense start to finish.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Diomedes, posted 02-16-2017 1:09 PM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Pressie, posted 02-17-2017 4:36 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 62 of 222 (827239)
01-21-2018 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by DOCJ
01-21-2018 3:46 AM


Re: Questions
What is the formula used to determine the age of materials? And what are the constant variables?
Different materials are aged using different techniques. For example, radiocarbon dating works with materials containing carbon and has an upper limit of about 50,000 years. For other materials and older samples other dating methods are needed.
RAZD has an excellent thread outlining many of these different methods and the very high correspondence between the different dating methods.
As for the formula, all of my books on radiocarbon dating are at the office. The basic method is to detect the levels of C14, which decays at a known rate. That figure, "percent modern" can then be equated to calendar years. Corrections are necessary for isotopic fractionation and calibration is needed to adjust for atmospheric variation.
A lot of details are spread throughout this thread, so take a few minutes to scan previous posts.
Hope this helps.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by DOCJ, posted 01-21-2018 3:46 AM DOCJ has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 64 of 222 (827241)
01-21-2018 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by RAZD
01-21-2018 10:41 AM


Re: Questions
Thank, RAZD, for filling in those details.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2018 10:41 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 76 of 222 (827331)
01-22-2018 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by DOCJ
01-22-2018 10:29 PM


Re: Questions
You respond to edge:
DOCJ writes:
In interpreting your response, it does seem as if you do not care about the accuracy of dating.
I don't see that in edge's response, nor do I see that in any scientists I deal with. What use are inaccurate dates?
In my field, archaeology, we make extensive use of radiocarbon dating. Scientists in various fields spend a lot of time working with the method to make it as accurate as possible. Correction for isotropic fractionation and atmospheric fluctuation are two examples. The calibration curve, which has been mentioned in a number of RAZD's threads, is another example--tree rings, glacial varves, corals, and several other sources of annular data all agree, and this lets us calibrate our dates. The most recent curve is 2013. The nice thing is, when I go back and recalibrate my dates using the most recent curve, the changes from the older curve are generally miniscule. But whenever a new curve comes out I go back and recalibrate many hundred dates because I want the most accurate dates I can get!
So I don't believe for a moment that edge or any other serious scientist doesn't care about the accuracy of dates and dating methods.
Creationists, on the other hand, often go to great lengths to twist dates around to suit their religious beliefs. Vapor canopies and wildly fluctuating decay rates are just two things they sometimes claim. At one point I was collecting faulty creationist claims about radiocarbon dating, and the results were pretty enlightening. So, if you want to critique approaches to dating you might look at what creationists have been claiming--its a target-rich environment!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by DOCJ, posted 01-22-2018 10:29 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by DOCJ, posted 01-23-2018 9:00 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 105 of 222 (827376)
01-23-2018 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Taq
01-23-2018 11:13 AM


Re: Questions
...only trying to ignore evidence you don't like.
But that's the creationist way.
They HAVE TO ignore contrary evidence 1) because it disproves their religious beliefs, and 2) there's so much of it.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Taq, posted 01-23-2018 11:13 AM Taq has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 133 of 222 (827409)
01-23-2018 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by DOCJ
01-23-2018 1:01 PM


Re: Questions
Theory's are mere falsehoods in science. And to some never refute theology.
Wrong -- again.
A theory is the single best explanation for a given set of facts; it cannot be contradicted by any relevant facts, and it must be able to make successful predictions.
Theology is the opposite, based on belief, scripture and other fuzzy subjects.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by DOCJ, posted 01-23-2018 1:01 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by DOCJ, posted 01-27-2018 10:37 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 134 of 222 (827410)
01-23-2018 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by DOCJ
01-23-2018 3:39 PM


Re: Questions
It's not difficult to understand or post that dating methods are being disputed in the science community. It is equally a simple matter to reference. Links have been provided.
Nonsense.
Radiocarbon dating is not disputed by anyone except religious zealots who can't accept that their favorite beliefs are disproved by the dating it provides.
Those disputing radiocarbon dating are not within the scientific community but are folks who are inherently anti-science. Yourself, for example.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by DOCJ, posted 01-23-2018 3:39 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by DOCJ, posted 01-23-2018 5:05 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 162 of 222 (827567)
01-28-2018 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by DOCJ
01-27-2018 11:41 PM


Re: Questions
My main point is in the scientific community these issues including chemical dating are being debated.
Within the scientific community there is no dispute or debate concerning radiocarbon dating. Take a look through the professional literature.
The "controversy" comes from creationists and creationist websites that lie to you. Because of religious beliefs they can't accept the results of radiocarbon and other dating methods, so they do their best to fool both themselves and their followers, as well as anyone else gullible enough to fall for their lies. The "controversy" is entirely between unevidenced religious beliefs on one hand and science on the other. Unlike religion, science relies on evidence and testing that evidence and has a pretty fine track record. That's why, of course, creationists tried to steal the good name of science with their phony creation "science."
So your claim that radiocarbon dating "is being debated" is false. It is being disputed for religious reasons; believers are trying their best to pick it apart, but they have failed utterly. The reason is that radiocarbon dating is accurate and works as advertised.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by DOCJ, posted 01-27-2018 11:41 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by DOCJ, posted 01-28-2018 12:13 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 167 of 222 (827572)
01-28-2018 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by DOCJ
01-28-2018 12:13 AM


Re: Questions
NASA astronomers like Hugh Ross support dating methods... What are you talking about??
Hugh Ross is an exception--an old earther. His views are very widely disputed within the creationist community.
You want dispute, that's where you'll find it, not within the scientific community.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by DOCJ, posted 01-28-2018 12:13 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by DOCJ, posted 01-28-2018 12:24 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 169 of 222 (827574)
01-28-2018 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by DOCJ
01-28-2018 12:24 AM


Re: Questions
The dispute of dating methods is within Science not theology.
Nonsense. I've been attending science conferences and meetings for decades and there is no dispute over radiocarbon dating. The discussions have been how to fine tune it, and that's been done over the decades.
By the way, I've written articles and monographs, and presented workshops, on radiocarbon dating, and I served for a while on the advisory body of a radiocarbon laboratory, so don't be trying to pull the wool over my eyes.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by DOCJ, posted 01-28-2018 12:24 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by DOCJ, posted 01-28-2018 3:16 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 183 of 222 (827596)
01-28-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by DOCJ
01-28-2018 3:16 AM


Re: Questions
Ok, good job. I am unsure why you didn't draw any questions regarding how to stop all the assumptions? I mean, how can you trust a date when you have no idea how much of the parent and daughter chemicals were present in the Rock being dated at creation? OR how can you just pretend to know nothing has changed within the Rock, except natural decay, from the original state at creation billions of years ago?
Poor job! Your reply shows you know absolutely nothing about radiocarbon dating!
A few errors: we don't date rocks, only things that were once living. We don't date back to "creation" which for the earth is >4 billion years, just back some 50,000 years or so. We do know the amount of parent material (C14) through tree ring calibrations!
You've shown you don't know the difference between the many radiometric dating methods, but in your ignorance you just know they're all wrong.
If you would just study some of these subjects upon which you are pontificating you'd do lot better in these posts.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by DOCJ, posted 01-28-2018 3:16 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by edge, posted 01-28-2018 11:30 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 189 by DOCJ, posted 01-29-2018 6:49 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 195 of 222 (827656)
01-29-2018 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by DOCJ
01-29-2018 6:49 AM


Re: Questions
I have edited my posts for clarification.
It may be better to correct things in a new post. Most of us don't go back to older posts to check for edits.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by DOCJ, posted 01-29-2018 6:49 AM DOCJ has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 207 of 222 (827713)
01-30-2018 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by DOCJ
01-29-2018 9:55 AM


Re: Questions and still no answers
However arguably radiocarbon dating MAY be correct but that doesn't mean all radiometric dating is correct.
True, but radiocarbon being correct is enough to disprove the YEC belief. And no creationist has yet been able to show where it is incorrect.
Further using tree rings may be incorrect due to multiplicity and carbon dating maybe incorrect due to the various points I've already pointed out, i.e., the assumptions, so in that case you don't have congruence.
Tree rings, ice cores, lake varves, speleothems, and corals all agree.
Further, "assumptions" are not wild-ass guesses. As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread the ones used in radiocarbon dating are well-supported conclusions based on massive amounts of data.
The bottom line is that radiocarbon dating is highly accurate when used properly, which scientists are careful to do. If you want abuses of the method check the creationist websites--they make a lot of mistakes, many of them through ignorance but some mistakes have to be deliberate in their efforts to fool their followers.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by DOCJ, posted 01-29-2018 9:55 AM DOCJ has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 213 of 222 (827748)
01-31-2018 11:56 AM


Summary?
"Assumptions involved in scientific dating"
Hmmm. After >200 posts I think its fair to say that any assumptions (or claims) made by YEC creationists regarding scientific dating will be just plain wrong.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

  
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