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Author Topic:   Fake polls, fake news
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 181 of 710 (800210)
02-20-2017 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Riggamortis
02-20-2017 9:00 PM


Re: Emails
Your sarcastic dismissal of nonsense was directed at me and implied that I did think they were evidence.
It was directed at the claims. If you believe the claims, then it was directed at you, but then your original protestations of dissociating from the claims fails. Take your pick.
You fired the first shot mate.
But not at you, try to not take statements personally. I said children are entertaining, I do do activities 'on' foodstuffs and highlighted that the conspiracy from pizza related map and a handkerchief to child sex ring is laughably absurd. If you feel that is taking a shot at you, you should probably get off the internet for a while.
Since you have clearly concluded that the allegations are nonsense, I am compelled to ask how you came to that conclusion?
I read them and noticed they were absurd. You don't think saying things like 'map' is a secret code word for semen is absurd? That 'cheese' should be taken as a secret codeword for little girls is ridiculous? That a private elite sex ring would use apparently common codewords of child porn sharing chatroom paedos is unbelievable?
Did you read the leaked 'climategate' emails? If I told you that 'temperature' meant 'penis' and 'carbon' meant semen and 'data' meant 'young boys' would that be remotely credible as a claim to you? Or would I need to engage in some numerology and loose associations through an anonymous chat board before the burden shifts to you to prove its absurdity?
I agree. I take it you have looked into the deeper reasons why some people are giving it serious consideration? How long did you spend? 5,10,30 minutes?
I read the original posts on 4chan and reddit that sparked the fake news fest back at the time of the growing hysteria. I read through Suspected Pedophile Ring Exposed Probably several hours of entertainment to be found there.
Or did you just google something like 'pizzagate debunked' and engage in a little confirmation bias?
No. I also went to wikileaks and read the original emails, along with dozens upon dozens of others that were never mentioned. I didn't see anything all that strange.
It makes you feel superior, does it? Or is it just about trying to humiliate the person into accepting your opinions on the matter?
Close. It's the same reason I mock people who believe in time cubed, that aliens shot Kennedy, that the earth is 6,000 years old and Jesus rode a dinosaur. Reason clearly doesn't work, and sometimes embarrassing people does make them work a little harder than they had previously been doing to justify their beliefs.
Or sometimes they just question my motives and don't bother with doing any work themselves. Mostly this, unfortunately.
People aren't looking at a couple of emails in a vacuum and concluding that something sinister is going on, there's more to it than that. You would know that if you had bothered to look into it for yourself.
I know, right? There's a picture of a freezer that's actually an underground kill room. There's a picture of a guy who owns a cafe bar called L'Enfants (named after Pierre Charles L'Enfant) wearing a J'adore L'Enfants T-shirt, who has been incorrectly identified as somebody else. There are logos, sex bracelets, kids playing ping pong. I mean the list is endless, right?
I'm not inclined to infiltrate a pedo group to verify whether or not it is a well known code or not. The code provides plausible deniability, if it is a code, it's working very well, no?
Well....erm...no. Because a bunch random anonymous folk on 4chan and reddit 'figured it out' (without backing up their claims with evidence). Had they used a private code, which are trivial to concoct, they could have avoided this possibility. Or alternatively, the guys on 4chan would have generated a completely different and baseless code with which to troll the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Riggamortis, posted 02-20-2017 9:00 PM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Riggamortis, posted 02-22-2017 8:48 PM Modulous has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 182 of 710 (800211)
02-20-2017 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
02-20-2017 8:41 PM


"Fake News"
The media SHOULD be what Trump calls "fake news". They should not censor news he happens not to like, nor should they make false or questionable assertions just because Trump wants people to believe them.
That should not be controversial among anyone who wants a free society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 02-20-2017 8:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 02-21-2017 12:23 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 183 of 710 (800212)
02-21-2017 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by PaulK
02-20-2017 11:59 PM


Re: "Fake News"
Fake news is telling lies. I don't think that is what they should be doing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2017 11:59 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 184 of 710 (800213)
02-21-2017 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
02-21-2017 12:23 AM


Re: "Fake News"
Since you define "telling lies" as saying things you don't like then I would expect the media to "tell lies". Doing their job requires them to sometimes "tell lies". You, on the other hand want the media to actually tell lies when things you want to be true are, in reality, false.
I mean, you can choose to believe things just because you like them but expecting anyone else to agree - let alone condemning anyone who disagrees - is daft at best.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 02-21-2017 12:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 02-21-2017 1:18 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 185 of 710 (800214)
02-21-2017 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by PaulK
02-21-2017 12:32 AM


Re: "Fake News"
You are awfully free with the slander. Very much like the lies the fake news purveyors tell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2017 12:32 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 186 of 710 (800215)
02-21-2017 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Faith
02-21-2017 1:18 AM


Re: "Fake News"
Just the truth Faith. We all know that you are the one in love with slander so long as it is directed against people you hate. You almost seem to think of slander as a Christian duty.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(4)
Message 187 of 710 (800225)
02-21-2017 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
02-20-2017 8:41 PM


Re: Emails
Faith writes:
And we don't need him to tell us the media are fake news,...
And you have so far given no examples of the mainstream liberal media (New York Times, Washington Post, CNN) concocting fake news. We do have examples of the conservative media doing it, like Pizzagate.
I *do* think you're using a fake definition of fake news, because you seem to think it's any news that isn't favorable to Donald Trump. Wikipedia defines fake news as "deliberately published hoaxes, propaganda and disinformation purporting to be real news." Can you accept that definition, and then can you provide examples of the mainstream liberal media engaging in its practice?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 02-20-2017 8:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2017 12:19 PM Percy has replied
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 02-21-2017 12:22 PM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 188 of 710 (800228)
02-21-2017 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Faith
02-21-2017 1:18 AM


Re: "Fake News"
Some pretty big charges you are making there. Also, as it is being written I believe it would be libel not slander. But like most things your write it is not true. No one slandered or libeled you did they?
If you are going to accuse someone of libel or slander you probably should present some evidence.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 189 of 710 (800230)
02-21-2017 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
02-20-2017 7:49 PM


Re: Yiannopoulos
Yiannopolous has shown enough sleaze to be discredited, I agree with that. But it was his conservative opinions the "protests" were about.
Yes, Faith, it was the sum total of all his views, which take conservative views to new lows. It seems the left figured this guy out before the right did.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 190 of 710 (800240)
02-21-2017 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
02-21-2017 12:23 AM


Re: "Fake News"
Faith writes:
Fake news is telling lies. I don't think that is what they should be doing.
I, for one, don't pay much attention to commentators. My impression of Trump comes entirely out of his own mouth.
When he claims to have won the biggest victory since Reagan - which is factually false - should I conclude that he's lying? Or that he just didn't bother to check his "facts"? Or that there's a vast left-wing conspiracy to photoshop the video of his news conference?
What would be "real" news in this example?

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 Message 183 by Faith, posted 02-21-2017 12:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 710 (800247)
02-21-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Percy
02-21-2017 8:00 AM


Re: Emails
Wikipedia defines fake news as "deliberately published hoaxes, propaganda and disinformation purporting to be real news." Can you accept that definition, and then can you provide examples of the mainstream liberal media engaging in its practice?
That isn't what I thought "fake news" was...
I thought it was all the spinned up articles that are passing off opinion pieces as facts that, when you dig into the sources and find the real story, end up being so far off-base that there's no way that the original claim could even be true.
I'll have to keep an eye out and post a link for you when I find a good example of what I'm talking about.
The hoaxes are just pure lies, but those aren't coming from the mainstream liberal media. Their fake news isn't pure lies, it's just spun so far that it looses touch.
But I could be completely wrong, I haven't been paying that much attention. Is the charge of "fake news" really claiming that the mainstream media is posting hoaxes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Percy, posted 02-21-2017 8:00 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Percy, posted 02-21-2017 1:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
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 Message 210 by Modulous, posted 02-21-2017 2:42 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 192 of 710 (800248)
02-21-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Percy
02-21-2017 8:00 AM


Solme examples of fake news against Trump
fortunately there are sources of information on fake news against Trump that I can refer to because I'm just aware of being drowned in it every day and am not good at keeping track of specifics. Those specifics everyone here demands of me. Yes I'm not good at it. But from my own impression it's often headlines misrepresenting what I know to be the facts.
For instance, the word "immigrant" is just about always misused in media reports of anything having to do with illegal aliens or Muslim refugees. It's a propaganda tool to obscure the fact that nobody is ever objecting to legal immigrants. It is used against Trump all the time to misrepresent what he's said about both illegal aliens and Muslim refugees. And that "immigrants day" recently itself, the whole thing, was exactly that sort of lie/fake news. He wants to deport the illegals who have committed crimes, and that is misrepresented as a mass movement to deport aliens of all kinds. There are some being deported all the time under Obama's orders, and those are treated in the media as the result of Trump's policies instead of Obama's. This is a concerted effort to insinuate some kind of fault on Trump's part which is usually not a fault at all and not Trump's in any case. About Muslim refugees he only said he wants them to be carefully vetted before being admitted, and that gets presented in the news as wholesale refusal to admit any Muslims at all.
More recently there have been headlines implying some kind of collusion between Trump and his administration and Russia. When you read the article there is no evidence whatever, just a restatement of the allegations and that "people are looking into it" or "finding reason" to look iinto it. There may be a line at the end of the article emphasizing that there is no actual evidence for any of it.
A report on the press conference will always make it sound like the poor media are being mistreated by Trump, when Trump is calling them out for their fake news. They will make it sound like Trump is degrading the media in the public's eye when it is the media itself that is doing that.
There's lots and lots of this stuff, it's a daily experience, it's the very air, foul air, we breathe these days, and as I said I'm not good at keeping track of it. So here's some of what I've found online:
Fake News Stories Reporters Have Run Since Trump Won
Early November: Spike in Transgender Suicide Rates
After Trump’s electoral victory on November 8, rumors began circulating that multiple transgender teenagers had killed themselves in response to the election results. There was no basis to these rumors. Nobody was able to confirm them at the time, and nobody has been able to confirm in the three months since Trump was elected.
Ah yes I remember all that utterly groundless hysteria on the part of the LGBT people, which hit me as terrifically strange since I was only too aware that Trump had come out SUPPORTING the LGBT people, to the extent that I realized there wasn't going to be any relief for Christians who in good conscience cannot act in a way that gives support to gay marriage, which is against God's Law. I knew that, why didn't the LGBT people know that? Or, perhaps they did, but the news media didn't want it to look like that, they wanted it to look like Trump was against them.
Then the article goes on to "The Tri-State Election Hacking Conspiracy Theory" which led to the failed recounts in those three states.l
Then to a story I don't recall myself:
December 1: The 27-Cent Foreclosure
At Politico on December 1, Lorraine Woellert published a shocking essay claiming that Trump’s pick for secretary of the Treasury, Steve Mnuchin, had overseen a company that foreclosed on a 90-year-old woman after a 27-cent payment error. According to Woellert: After confusion over insurance coverage, a OneWest subsidiary sent [Ossie] Lofton a bill for $423.30. She sent a check for $423. The bank sent another bill, for 30 cents. Lofton, 90, sent a check for three cents. In November 2014, the bank foreclosed.
...The problem? The central scandalous claims of Woellert’s article were simply untrue. As the Competitive Enterprise Institute’s Ted Frankpointed out,the woman in question was never foreclosed on, and never lost her home. Moreover, It wasn’t Mnuchin’s bank that brought the suit.
Politico eventually corrected these serious and glaring errors. But the damage was done: the story had been repeated by numerous media outlets includingHuffington Post(shared 25,000 times on Facebook), theNew York Post,Vanity Fair,and many others.
January 20: Nancy Sinatra’s Complaints about the Inaugural Ball
January 20: The Nonexistent Climate Change Website ‘Purge’
January 20: The Great MLK Jr. Bust Controversy
January 20: Betsy DeVos, Grizzly Fighter
During her confirmation hearing, education secretary nominee Betsy DeVos was asked whether schools should be able to have guns on their campuses. As NBC News reported, DeVos felt it was best left to locales and states to decide. She pointed out that one school in Wyoming had a fence around it to protect the students from wildlife. I would imagine, she said, that there’s probably a gun in the school to protect from potential grizzlies.
This was an utterly noncontroversial stance to take. DeVos was simply pointing out that different states and localities have different needs, and attempting to mandate a nationwide one-size-fits-all policy for every American school is imprudent.
How did the media run with it? By lying through their teeth. Betsy DeVos Says Guns Should Be Allowed in Schools. They Might Be Needed to Shoot Grizzlies (Slate). Betsy DeVos: Schools May Need Guns to Fight Off Bears (The Daily Beast). Citing grizzlies, education nominee says states should determine school gun policies (CNN). Betsy DeVos says guns in schools may be necessary to protect students from grizzly bears(ThinkProgress.) Betsy DeVos says guns shouldn’t be banned in schools because grizzly bears (Vox). Betsy DeVos tells Senate hearing she supports guns in schools because of grizzly bears (The Week). Trump’s Education Pick Cites ‘Potential Grizzlies’ As A Reason To Have Guns In Schools (BuzzFeed).
The intellectual dishonesty at play here is hard to overstate.
I guess I'll continue at least listing headlines in case nobody wants to read the article:
January 26: The ‘Resignations’ At the State Department
January 27: The Photoshopped Hands Affair
January 29: The Reuters Account Hoax
Following the Quebec City mosque massacre, the Daily Beast published a story that purported to identify the two shooters who had perpetrated the crime. The problem? The story’s source was a Reuters parody account on Twitter. Incredibly, nobody at the Daily Beast thought to check the source to any appreciable degree.
January 31: The White House-SCOTUS Twitter Mistake
January 31: The Big Travel Ban Lie
On January 31, a Fox affiliate station out of Detroit reported that A local business owner who flew to Iraq to bring his mother back home to the US for medical treatment said she was blocked from returning home under President Trump’s ban on immigration and travel from seven predominately Muslim nations. He said that while she was waiting for approval to fly home, she died from an illness.
Like most other sensational news incidents, this one took off, big-time: it was shared countless times on Facebook, not just from the original article itself (123,000 shares) but via secondary reporting outlets such as the Huffington Post (nearly 9,000 shares). Credulous reporters and media personalities shared the story on Twitter to the tune of thousands and thousands of retweets, including: Christopher Hooks, Gideon Resnick, Daniel Dale, Sarah Silverman, Blake Hounshell, Brian Beutler, Garance Franke-Ruta, Keith Olbermann (he got 3,600 retweets on that one!), Matthew Yglesias, and Farhad Manjoo.
The story spread so far because it gratified all the biases of the liberal media elite: it proved that Trump’s Muslim ban was an evil, racist Hitler-esque mother-killer of an executive order.
There was just one problem: it was a lie. The man had lied about when his mother died. The Fox affiliate hadn’t bothered to do the necessary research to confirm or disprove the man’s account. The news station quietly corrected the story after giving rise to such wild, industrial-scale hysteria.
February 1: POTUS Threatens to Invade Mexico
February 2: Easing the Russian Sanctions
February 2: Renaming Black History Month
February 2: The House of Representatives’ Gun Control Measures
The article concludes with a discussion of the general problem:
Maybe It’s Time to Stop Reading Fake News
Surely more incidents have happened since Trump was elected; doubtlessly there are many more to come. To be sure, some of these incidents are larger and more shameful than others, and some are smaller and more mundane.
But all of them, taken as a group, raise a pressing and important question: why is this happening? Why are our media so regularly and so profoundly debasing and beclowning themselves, lying to the public and sullying our national discoursesometimes on a daily basis? How has it come to this point? ...
That I believe is probably the most thorough and least inflammatory account of the problem out there. I got it off a Google page that came up for "Fake News Against Trump" where you will find many other discussions of the situation both pro and con.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Percy, posted 02-21-2017 8:00 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by NoNukes, posted 02-21-2017 12:47 PM Faith has replied
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 710 (800250)
02-21-2017 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Faith
02-21-2017 12:22 PM


Re: Solme examples of fake news against Trump
Faith, the link to the article in your post is broken. Would you mind fixing it?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 02-21-2017 12:22 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 194 of 710 (800253)
02-21-2017 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by NoNukes
02-21-2017 12:47 PM


Re: Solme examples of fake news against Trump
Corrected.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 195 of 710 (800257)
02-21-2017 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by New Cat's Eye
02-21-2017 12:19 PM


Re: Emails
New Cat's Eye writes:
Is the charge of "fake news" really claiming that the mainstream media is posting hoaxes?
If you mean Trump's charge of "fake news", then no, it isn't a claim that the mainstream media is posting hoaxes. As Wikipedia says, "fake news" is "deliberately published hoaxes, propaganda and disinformation purporting to be real news." What Trump means by "fake news" is something different and incorrect. By "fake news" Trump means news that is unfavorable to him, like that he didn't have the largest inauguration crowd in history, or that he didn't have the biggest electoral victory since Reagan, or that there wasn't a terrorist incidence in Sweden Friday night.
Trump is clearly misusing the term "fake news". For example, at his first press conference he called CNN "fake news" for reporting that a former British intelligence agent had gathered a dossier on Trump that purportedly contained potentially salacious material, specifically noting that they had not been able to confirm the validity of the dossier. Nothing they said was false or fake. One could very reasonable argue that CNN should not have reported this without gaining reliable information about the dossier's contents, that short of that the story lacked significance, but one can't argue that they said anything false or fake.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2017 12:19 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2017 1:40 PM Percy has replied
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 02-21-2017 2:27 PM Percy has replied

  
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