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Author Topic:   Fake polls, fake news
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 241 of 710 (800341)
02-22-2017 12:35 PM


One report on Sweden
I gave the link to the YouTube page in the previous post on the subject of Sweden. Here I'll give one of the videos. It takes a determination to maintain a blindness to the truth to deny such a report:

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by PaulK, posted 02-22-2017 12:53 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 242 of 710 (800342)
02-22-2017 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Faith
02-22-2017 12:23 PM


Re: Crime in Sweden is huge.
Faith writes:
They've threatened censorship of the truth and it's probably already underway and soon may be complete, but it's still possible to find some reports of the truth. Just go to You Tube:
"Just go to youtube" that's got to be the carrion call of the new alt.facts movement. Get a T shirt made quick.
Some old fashioned facts
Again, it doesn't ring true, and this time because the numbers don't add up. According to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Br), the number of rapes reported annually in the country per 100,000 citizens has been relatively steady for almost a decade.
In 2016 there were 67 reported rapes per 100,000 people, 60 in 2015, 69 in 2014, 63 in 2013, 66 in 2012, 69 in 2011, 64 in 2010 and 2009, 59 in 2008 and 52 in 2007.
Those figures show there was actually a 12 percent dip in the number of rapes reported in Sweden in 2015 — the year the country received a record 163,000 asylum applications, at the peak of the refugee crisis. The figures for 2016 are preliminary.
Just a moment...
There are some other interesting facts that you might like to dismiss in that link too.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 02-22-2017 12:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 243 of 710 (800343)
02-22-2017 12:50 PM


More on Sweden

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 244 of 710 (800344)
02-22-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
02-22-2017 12:35 PM


Re: One report on Sweden
Conspiracy theory ranting aside is there any reason we should trust a YouTube video over the official crime figures ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 02-22-2017 12:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 02-22-2017 1:20 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 245 of 710 (800345)
02-22-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by PaulK
02-22-2017 12:53 PM


Re: One report on Sweden
... is there any reason we should trust a YouTube video over the official crime figures?
Honesty. An honest assessment of the video shows its truthfulness over the statistics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by PaulK, posted 02-22-2017 12:53 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by PaulK, posted 02-22-2017 1:37 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 250 by NoNukes, posted 02-22-2017 1:40 PM Faith has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 246 of 710 (800346)
02-22-2017 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Faith
02-22-2017 12:23 PM


Re: Crime in Sweden is huge.
What I posted in Message 197 is simply true, there is an incredible epidemic of rape and other crimes in Sweden
Ain't so. Crime and rape is pretty flat in Sweden. There was a small uptick in rape in 2016 compared to 2015, but rapes in 2016 were fewer than in 2014.
Last year there were 50% more murders in Orlando/Orange, Florida, than in all of Sweden.
quote:
Canadian reporter Doug Saunders rigorously investigated the narrative, and concluded that it falls apart as soon as you speak to anyone knowledgeable in Sweden. Official Swedish statistics do indeed show a high rate of rape, but that’s because Swedish law has an extremely expansive definition of what qualifies as rape under the law. Sweden has a higher official rape rate, in short, because its police are better able to investigate and prosecute sexual violence.
Here are Sweden's crime stats for 2016: analysis:
quote:
That’s according to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Br), whose preliminary figures suggest that the overall number of crimes reported in Sweden during the last year was around 1.5 million, only a marginal (6,470) increase compared to 2015.
...
But a criminology expert has warned The Local that reaching conclusions by analyzing figures for reported crimes is a tricky business.
Reported crimes are a lousy measure of the development of crimes. The number of crimes reported tends to be dependent on the discussion going on in the country, University of Stockholm criminology professor Jerzy Sarnecki said.
What criminologists do is to look at the 10-year, 20-year development. Then we can see the trends. Year to year, it’s impossible to judge why changes occur, he added.
An example of a figure from Br’s statistics which paints one picture in isolation but a different one with further context is that the number of rapes reported in Sweden increased by 13 percent in 2016 to 6,560.
But when that number is compared to 2014, where the number of reported rapes was 6,700, then a slight decrease can actually be seen. In other words, the number of reported rapes in Sweden dipped in 2015 (down by 12 percent to 5,920) then in 2016 it returned to around the same level as 2014.
Seen over a ten-year period, the number of reported rapes has gone up from 4,208 in 2006, partly because of legislative changes in the previous year and in 2013 broadening the definition, according to Br.
According to Br's figures, 10,500 incidents of sexual molestation were reported in the country in 2016 — a striking increase of 20 percent on 2015 (when 8,840 were reported).
But once again, 2015 was a year when reported sexual molestation had dropped significantly — it was down by eight percent that year compared to 2014, when 9,640 incidents were reported.
The number of crimes reported can depend very much on the propensity to report, Sarnecki noted.
In 2016 for instance there was a lot of discussion about sexual assault and the relation between sexual assault and immigration. We know through research that those kind of years with more discussion of those subjects see the number of crimes reported increase.
"The problem with explaining these figures is that very many variables not necessarily related to crime impact the figures. You have to be very careful, in particular if you look at changes on a year-to-year basis," he concluded.
Your sources are fake news.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 02-22-2017 12:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 247 of 710 (800347)
02-22-2017 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
02-22-2017 1:20 PM


Re: One report on Sweden
quote:
Honesty. An honest assessment of the video shows its truthfulness over the statistics.
You have said that sort of thing before - and it has usually been dishonest.
So. On what grounds would I honestly conclude that a video on YouTube made by I don't know who is more truthful than the statistics ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 02-22-2017 1:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 248 of 710 (800349)
02-22-2017 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by New Cat's Eye
02-22-2017 11:11 AM


Re: Emails
New Cat's Eye writes:
But first, what are we talking about? If you're only accepting mainstream news sources that say blatant falsehoods and then refuse to correct them, then I'm not gonna play. That's not what I consider fake news.
Faith pretty much agrees with me, see Message 236. She deemed "fake news" to be news that is "demonstrably false." I think you're looking for some other definition. I *do* want to understand what people mean, but that doesn't include accepting that their words mean precisely what they mean them to mean. Language *is* malleable, but not day-to-day or post-to-post. Right now "fake news" has a particular meaning, let's use it despite any attempts by someone living on Pennsylvania Avenue to sow confusion.
Again, I could be completely wrong about what fake news is, I dunno. But if it's that, then I don't care - that never happens.
Huh? Of course it happens. In particular it happened over and over and over again during the election. What do you think Pizzagate and murder-suicide-FBI-agent-investigating-Hillary-Clinton-gate were? They were "fake news," just not in the mainstream media. If that's what you meant, that it never happens in the mainstream media, then though I disagree with the characterization of "never" I would agree that it is far more rare in the mainstream media than in the heaps of Internet-based media outlets that have sprouted like weeds.
I would think that fake news would be the stories that news agency publish that aren't actually news, but are just opinions, that the public consumes as if it was news.
Again, that's not the definition of "fake news." That's something that happens, but deeming misinterpreted opinion pieces as "fake news" would be incorrect.
Like I said, the news today is just telling the public what their opinions should be. There's very little actual journalism.
You must be thinking of when cynicism was cool.
The bullshit sites that post blatant lies are hoaxes, in my opinion, and aren't even news enough to be fake news. People falling for hoaxes and thinking it is legitimate news is dumbasses getting trolled, in my mind.
An apparently large portion of Americans have difficultly telling fact from fiction, in effect have a faulty bullshit meter.
I think he's leaning more towards what I'm talking about: spinning facts and writing opinions and passing them off as legitimate journalism.
No, that wouldn't be entirely accurate. While he is easily bothered by reporting unfavorable to him, he was upset because the mainstream media disagreed that his inauguration was the biggest ever, during his first press conference called CNN "fake news" because they reported on the existence of the dossier of his Russian involvement, and he was very upset at the news media during his last press conference because they reported on investigations into his Russian ties. All these things were true and reported accurately, yet to Trump they are "fake news."
Now, would you like me to provide examples of that?
If you think you've found "spinning facts" and opinions that shouldn't be part of any legitimate news piece in the mainstream media then sure, provide examples. At some point you do have to stop merely claimging "They did this and they did that" and start providing some evidence for what you're talking about.
Do you honestly think that the state of journalism today is something that you stand behind and defend? Don't you agree that mainstream news is complete bullshit?
You're starting to sound nutty. If it weren't for the news media I wouldn't know about, or have any way of knowing about, Trump's plans for changing immigration enforcement, the DeVos/Sessions disagreement about transgender bathroom rules in schools, pipeline protesters in North Dakata approaching a deadline for vacating, and Bao Bao the panda returning to China to breed.
If we're talking about court cases or laws, I go to the source. And if it's news sites, I go through their sources, and their sources sources, until I get to the bottom.
Sounds fascinating, but how does this work in practice to go through to their sources? For example, concerning the story about the DeVos/Sessions disagreement, what does going to the source entail?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-22-2017 11:11 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-23-2017 10:18 AM Percy has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 249 of 710 (800350)
02-22-2017 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by caffeine
02-21-2017 5:44 PM


Re: The Sweden flap
quote:
I never thought a President in my lifetime would make me look back on GWB fondly.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 710 (800351)
02-22-2017 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
02-22-2017 1:20 PM


Re: One report on Sweden
Honesty. An honest assessment of the video shows its truthfulness over the statistics.
No, it does not. A video represents a tiny section of speakers talking about something and gives their impressions. Further, those speakers are selected by whoever is producing the video. Anyone can make a video.
Did you do any fact checking on what appears in the video? How would you do that checking? Is it just that you know the truth when it agrees with you?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 02-22-2017 1:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 02-22-2017 1:43 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 251 of 710 (800352)
02-22-2017 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by JonF
02-22-2017 1:21 PM


Re: Crime in Sweden is huge.
Did you watch the videos you are judging as "fake news?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by JonF, posted 02-22-2017 1:21 PM JonF has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 252 of 710 (800353)
02-22-2017 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by NoNukes
02-22-2017 1:40 PM


Re: One report on Sweden
Well, there are lots of such videos, lots and lots of them. But in my opinion even one made by an honest observer should be enough to suggest to an honest viewer that perhaps the truth isn't being promoted by the usual sources.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by NoNukes, posted 02-22-2017 1:40 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by DrJones*, posted 02-22-2017 1:45 PM Faith has replied
 Message 256 by NoNukes, posted 02-22-2017 1:57 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 266 by JonF, posted 02-22-2017 2:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 253 of 710 (800354)
02-22-2017 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
02-22-2017 1:43 PM


Re: One report on Sweden
and how do you know that the observer is honest?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 02-22-2017 1:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 02-22-2017 1:48 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 254 of 710 (800355)
02-22-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by DrJones*
02-22-2017 1:45 PM


Re: One report on Sweden
It's obvious. Take it or leave it.
This need to pretend that these things are not happening in Europe is astonishing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by DrJones*, posted 02-22-2017 1:45 PM DrJones* has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 258 by PaulK, posted 02-22-2017 2:03 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 259 by jar, posted 02-22-2017 2:06 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 268 by JonF, posted 02-22-2017 2:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 710 (800356)
02-22-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by New Cat's Eye
02-22-2017 11:11 AM


Re: Emails
And if it's news sites, I go through their sources, and their sources sources, until I get to the bottom.
That sounds great in principle, but I doubt you can do that effectively.
I agree with you that there is a problem with main stream media. The problem I see is the drive for the sensational and entertaining in order to drive eyeballs to their advertising stream. Print media is of so little profitability that news papers are an after thought.
Like I said, the news today is just telling the public what their opinions should be. There's very little actual journalism.
Perhaps that is because facts should dictate your impression of what is correct. It may well be impossible to maintain the illusion that Trump's administration is a well oiled machine if we are actually seeing the results of its work.
Or maybe you just cannot separate news from editorials and other opinion pieces.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-22-2017 11:11 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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