Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Addiction By Definition
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 153 of 331 (797462)
01-21-2017 12:15 PM


Irrationality and Addiction Day 188
Has anyone noticed that as my brain is healing from my addiction, my irrational beliefs seem to have taken on a temporary emotional obsession?
Dont get me wrong...I am a believer as always, but my arguments seem petty, desperate, and not rational lately. I am attributing this to mental healing, though am at a loss to explain why I am getting worse.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by NoNukes, posted 01-22-2017 8:39 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 155 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2017 9:43 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 156 by Stile, posted 01-22-2017 11:07 AM Phat has replied
 Message 157 by ramoss, posted 01-23-2017 10:56 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(2)
Message 158 of 331 (797601)
01-24-2017 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by ramoss
01-23-2017 10:56 AM


Irrationality and Addiction Day 191
ramoss writes:
Have you thought it might not be because you are being more irrational, but more aware of yourself??
Actually I have considered that possibility.
Today is day 191. I am coming down with that cough/respiratory crud that seems to be going around!
Yesterday I passed by a lotto machine and looked at all the "new" games...and just looking at them caused a reaction within me as I thought about certain undefinable emotions that I used to have while playing them.
Contrast that with now. I am at peace. It would be folly to ever entertain chaos such as i did. Perhaps back then I saw the distress as excitement. Now, however, I am glad that I am at peace.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by ramoss, posted 01-23-2017 10:56 AM ramoss has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 159 of 331 (797602)
01-24-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Stile
01-22-2017 11:07 AM


E-motions Day 191
stile writes:
I would like to point out that "emotions" never make anything "worse."
Emotions themselves are the way humans work... we have emotions, we're human.
The only "worse" thing emotions can bring is if you follow them without using your intellect to monitor and guide your actions.
For example: Road rage. Simply "following the emotions" of road rage is a bad thing. However, if you use your intellect to monitor and guide your actions, and accept the emotion for what it is - a human feeling of rage - you put that emotion to good use - focusing more on safe driving habits.
There's nothing "wrong" or bad about emotions. If there was, there would be something fundamentally wrong/bad about being human. Because humans have emotions.
There's only wrong or bad choices or actions following those emotions.
Looking back...and trying to recall the "feeling" of the addictive days versus the feeling of the here and now.
Back then I was like a zombie. I felt nothing except anxiety and the drive to gamble. Apart from fantasy based thinking...which always led back to the gambling "rush" itself...I hardly was aware of what I was doing at all... and yet I was aware that my will at that time was to feed my addiction.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Stile, posted 01-22-2017 11:07 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-24-2017 12:20 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 161 of 331 (797631)
01-24-2017 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by New Cat's Eye
01-24-2017 12:20 PM


Re: E-motions Day 191
I got through the early recovery without the need for the medicine.
I studied the brain in this book:
Healing The Addicted Brain
He mentions the newest medications, but I have had bad results with medications before so I toughed out the first 40 days and never looked back.
E-Motions can be thought of as energy in motion. My point was that an addicted brain has a limited sense of what the emotion---the energy---actually is.
To an addict, the feeling is simply action. After 40 days, the feelings begin to become reassociated with the energy in motion.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-24-2017 12:20 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 162 of 331 (797832)
01-27-2017 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by New Cat's Eye
01-24-2017 12:20 PM


Brain Recovery: Day 194 and counting
New New Cat Sci writes:
There's medicine for that, talk to your doctor.
I studied more about the medications. The following are common in Alcohol recovery, at least: Vivitrol, Campral, Antabuse and Suboxone.
Addiction is a chronic medical illness that attacks the brain, damaging key parts of the cerebral cortex and limbic system.
Much of the injury to the brain occurs in the frontal cortex, an area that plays an important role in memory, judgment, impulse control, problem-solving, and other intellectual skills. The medications are primarily effective at healing the limbic system, where desires and basic drives reside.
A comprehensive treatment model includes 12 step programs and/or group therapy...talk therapy. Evidence shows that an addict will generally not listen or consider what's best for them until after 21-40 days of sobriety.
A well-planned treatment model also incorporates psychiatric care, psychotherapy, wellness/nutrition/stress management, neuropsychological assessment, and family therapy.
I am using some of these methods but have not incorporated all of them. Talking here at EvC is part of my therapy, but only informally.
Today is Day 194---I am battling a cold and am worn out from working so hard. Sleep and plenty of water are tried and true therapies and I am using them.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-24-2017 12:20 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 163 of 331 (797909)
01-29-2017 9:58 AM


Day 196 Facing Codependency
I am finding that my lifelong issues revolving around entitlement and codependency are coming to the forefront.
quote:
Codependence is the pain in adulthood that comes from being wounded in childhood and leads to a high probability of relationship problems and addictive/compulsive behavior. It is a combination of immature thinking, feeling and behaving that generates an aversive relationship with the self (self-loathing), which the codependent individual acts out through self- destructive or unduly self-sacrificial behavior.
I am helping to care for my 93-year-old Mother and am becoming scared...not just of losing her but of losing what she represents to me. Although I am free from gambling, I find myself depending on things in life that won't help me.
I am just scratching the surface on these deep emotions so far...but I can say that they are very strong...ingrained from when I was young. I realize that I need to depend on others---and on God..though some would challenge that assumption.
I feel very scared by myself...when I finally get down to it. Not even sure I feel it as I write this...so intuitively I may be receiving false signals. Stay tuned

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 165 of 331 (799309)
02-09-2017 3:57 AM


Day 206.
My mind is blank. I feel anger...like the fundamentalist Christians I warned about in my Trump=antichrist post.
I too am scared of losing. I am angry at anyone or anything that takes my security away from me.
All I know is that I am in a marathon. This is not a sprint. I could be in therapy for years. Stay tuned....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by RAZD, posted 02-09-2017 7:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(2)
Message 167 of 331 (800100)
02-20-2017 1:49 AM


Day 218--At least I'm not feeling as depressed
The recovery process is slow and frustrating, as is reality. For much of my life I lived in fantasy---as does much of the United States.
  • What doesa it mean to be "great again"? Are we yearning for our youth?
    US News & World Report writes:
    Addiction is America's most neglected disease. According to a Columbia University study, "40 million Americans age 12 and over meet the clinical criteria for addiction involving nicotine, alcohol or other drugs." That's more Americans than those with heart disease, diabetes or cancer. An estimated additional 80 million people in this country are "risky substance users," meaning that while not addicted, they "use tobacco, alcohol and other drugs in ways that threaten public health and safety." The costs to government coffers alone (not including family, out of pocket and private insurance costs) exceed $468 billion annually.
    What about my own finances? Well...despite being unemployed for 5 months last year, I ended the year out of debt and ahead.
    This year is also good so far. Rather than spending $400.00 a month I am saving it.
    I see the counselor again on Thursday...will give an update then.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

  • Replies to this message:
     Message 168 by Theodoric, posted 02-20-2017 9:07 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (2)
    Message 170 of 331 (800540)
    02-25-2017 11:50 AM


    Day 223--Ominous Dreams
    I have a recurring dream that comes again and again..it is a dream where I am back at a job I had at age 17 at a restaurant called The Alpine Village Inn. My Father was still alive, but I was very fond of a manager whom I had...Mickey. Mick would give me raises more than the other workers because I was such a hard worker for him. I would wash dishes ten hours a day and would also tend the plants outside....the restaurant had beautiful gardens. I was in my senior year of high school, life was exciting and optimistic, and I was earning more money than I needed....living free at home.
    This was the American Dream I had...it came early in my life and left early...so I suppose that's why I keep returning to this dream.
    I realize that a dream is a place I can never return to in reality....there is no free home to live in anymore....and I have health issues and am 57 rather than 17.
    The only reality I have is Day 223 of sobriety. I can feel my brain continuing to heal. I am doing my best (or trying to do so) and I pray for our nation. Hopefully, the American Dream that they vainly seek won't turn into a national nightmare.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (2)
    Message 171 of 331 (801528)
    03-07-2017 9:51 AM


    Day 233...the diminishment of dopamine
    Today is Day 233. I had an intense dream the other day in which I was actually teaching myself---in the dream!
    To me, this is significant because it shows that my awareness of healing is now at the subconscious level.
    quote:
    Research on the brain indicates that addiction is about powerful memories, and recovery is a slow process in which the influence of those memories is diminished. Both addictive drugs and highly pleasurable or intense experiences (such as a life or death thrill, a crime, or an orgasm) trigger the release of the brain chemical dopamine, which in turn creates a reward circuit in the brain. This circuit registers that intense experience as "important" and creates lasting memories of it as a pleasurable experience.
    Dopamine changes the brain on a cellular level, commanding the brain to "do it again," which heightens the possibility of relapse even long after the behavior (or drug) has stopped.
    Dopamine also helps to explain why intense experiences can be just as addictive as drugs.
    Thus I am slowly relearning what is important in life.
    I saw my counselor....as I went to the appointment I was realizing that nothing much is happening in my recovery (or seems to be) which is reported anecdotally in other recovery journals. At the session, I surprised both of us with a lucid discourse on my future plans...a discourse which, I might add, showed that something was in fact happening in that brain of mine.
    Brain science is fascinating...and observing my own recovery is a bit like journaling while being a lab rat.
    Edited by Phat, : edited admin mode

    Replies to this message:
     Message 172 by Phat, posted 03-10-2017 11:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 172 of 331 (801920)
    03-10-2017 11:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
    03-07-2017 9:51 AM


    Re: Day 236- A Bit Of Irrational Anger
    Today is Day 236. I have noticed a bitr of irrational anger in some of my replies to others here at EvC.
    Jar set me off. He always defends the rest of the world more than he does the US...just as he defended the Native Americans against us---going so far to suggest that if we were honorable we could give them back their land!
    My inner Trump voter came out. I felt like a child who had his precious toys snatched out of his hands by other children who were pushing into the playground and taking my favorite swing. I get angry when people attack my home. They can attack Trump all they want...I agree with most of that...I liked Barack Obama.
    I like my union. They gave me back my job---(Though deep down I believe God gave it back to me) I am a moderate. I believe in limited and useful socialism.
    I realize that at its core, capitalism is competitive and heartless---which was no problem when I was growing up but is now becoming an issue as I am aging and feel as if i am being treated as just another one of the global masses rather than a privileged kid.
    From a science perspective, I feel fear. Anger. Jealosy. Even rage at the rest of the world passing me by. I have channeled my inner Trump supporter. It scares me. I never wanted to be an a**hole.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 171 by Phat, posted 03-07-2017 9:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 173 by RAZD, posted 03-11-2017 5:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 174 by jar, posted 03-11-2017 6:52 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (1)
    Message 175 of 331 (804422)
    04-09-2017 12:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 174 by jar
    03-11-2017 6:52 AM


    Day 266-Still Healing
    I can't believe that I have actually made it to day 266! As of today, I am not at the place I assumed I would be at this time. Perhaps I always did have a life of fantasy vs reality. Reality seems to provide no assurance. No promise. No blessing.
    But then again, why must I be so negative? I dare yet have faith and hope in a better future.
    My healing is spreading to other areas of my personality---other addictions, compulsions, and hangups that I have carried with me my entire life.
    I am taking care of my 93-year-old mother who just had a mini stroke two days ago---she couldnt talk---but has already recovered after a day in the hospital.
    I know God has her---but the issue is that I no longer do. At 57, I still feel like her codependant child.
    Then there is my love life. I have never had any girlfriends nor been attracted to any, but I realize that my younger friends (they are anywhere from 24-20 years old) don't need me as much as I seem to cling to them.
    Jesus is with me---I believe this fully. Yet it seems as if the reality of life involves handling pain and disappointment.
    When will I find the cloud with the silver lining? Must reality always be harsh?
    I wish I had more optimism.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 174 by jar, posted 03-11-2017 6:52 AM jar has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 176 by NoNukes, posted 04-09-2017 3:21 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (3)
    Message 177 of 331 (808786)
    05-13-2017 7:38 AM


    Day 300 has arrived!
    I am continuing to heal from my diseased brain. As I look back over this thread and what I myself said a few years ago, I am finding that I now think differently in several ways.
    Phat in 2014 writes:
    The full healing process achieved through sobriety usually involves a minimum of six months and an expected duration of two years.
    I now believe that the healing process most definitely involves a minimum of a year and is ongoing until the day I die.
    I am noticing subtle changes in my emotional thought process as well as honesty towards logic--in most cases---even though I do not feel that I am finding the "right" answers.
    The sense of entitlement is slowly being burned out of me.
    If anything, it also makes me a stronger Christian.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    Replies to this message:
     Message 178 by jar, posted 05-13-2017 7:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 179 by NoNukes, posted 05-15-2017 12:33 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 180 of 331 (811697)
    06-10-2017 5:24 PM


    Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
    Earlier I reported how my once diseased brain is finding new life due to sobriety from a major addiction (and addictive pattern).
    Remember this conversation, Ringo?
    2014 Phat writes:
    IF I can get this addiction cured, all of my other minor addictions of any severity or consequence will also get resolved.
    Ringo writes:
    Really? Or is your behaviour just as likely to be channeled in another direction?
    2014 Phat writes:
    Lets do some research on this one. Assuming EvC (and us) are still here in six months, let me get back to you on this one.
    I have personally found that the addiction does get channeled into other directions. I still battle obsessive thoughts and behaviors in areas unrelated to gambling.
    Religion itself could be a form of addiction. I do not like to be so patently rationale that I could simply trash my beliefs in the name of science. For some reason I need those beliefs. Critics may say that Jesus exists for no more reason than some humans need Him to exist! Personally, I believe that He exists anyway, but you get my point.
    On a side note, my two (in my opinion) most rational threads I ever made here at EvC were these two:
    The Marketing Of Christianity which was made in March of 2016 before I began to become sober.
    The God That Paul Marketed Over Time was started in October 2016 after I had been sober 90 days.
    What concerns me is that my current arguments are not even as good as these were in the two threads. I seem to be mentally relapsing.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    Replies to this message:
     Message 181 by Tangle, posted 06-10-2017 5:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 182 by RAZD, posted 06-10-2017 8:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 183 by NoNukes, posted 06-10-2017 8:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 184 by ringo, posted 06-11-2017 2:33 PM Phat has replied
     Message 185 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-12-2017 9:31 AM Phat has replied
     Message 331 by Phat, posted 09-10-2023 3:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 187 of 331 (811887)
    06-13-2017 8:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 184 by ringo
    06-11-2017 2:33 PM


    Re: Day 328. Staring In The Mirror
    ringo writes:
    I think we all have such thoughts whether we call them "addictions" or not. (Some might call it Original Sin). The best we can hope for is to be able to channel them in less damaging directions.
    You and I have discussed this before. I believe that the key word is obsessive. You may label your obsessions as preferences rather than addictions, but there is a distinct and measurable brain pattern that differentiates an addictive behavior from a simple chosen action.
    One may claim that they prefer to have a drink every day and that since it harms no one they prefer not to self-classify it as an addiction. MRI scans may show a different story though. In other words, of course we love our chosen habits but we do not get to label them addictive or not. The MRI scans always confirm the classic changes that mark an addictive pattern in the brain.
    The best we can hope for is to be able to channel them in less damaging directions.
    Perhaps we can pick our chosen addiction---to a degree---but it still remains an addiction. The goal, in my mind, is to overcome the need to be obsessive/compulsive about anything and to be overall more rational, calm, and mindful.
    Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 184 by ringo, posted 06-11-2017 2:33 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 193 by ringo, posted 06-13-2017 11:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024