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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 56 of 438 (797797)
01-27-2017 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
01-27-2017 10:44 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:
Its almost as if you are saying that if GOD does in fact exist, you won't be on board unless he does precisely what you want Him to do.
ringo writes:
Would you go to Wal-Mart and buy something that doesn't do what you want it to?
Bad analogy. People will never accept God because He never allows them to simply do what they want to do.(Original Sin hypothesis and analogy)
Phat writes:
I conclude that you simply prefer to be the captain of your own ship anyway.
What benefits are available through YOUR chosen Captain?
I'll have to think of a proper reply...I already know that you would argue that there are no benefits and that my captain is an illusion anyway...so
I'll wait until after your next post.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 01-27-2017 10:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 01-27-2017 12:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 57 of 438 (797799)
01-27-2017 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
01-27-2017 10:44 AM


God by ringos hypothetical definition
ringo writes:
We're talking about the God that YOU define.
Part of the reason is because you--being atheist---have not defined a God of your own.
Be hypothetical. Define a God...make Him the only One and explain the characteristics you would ascribe to Him making Him worthy of worship or of obedience?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 01-27-2017 10:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 01-27-2017 11:39 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 438 (797815)
01-27-2017 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by ringo
01-27-2017 11:39 AM


Re: God by ringos hypothetical definition
he MAY care about the life in those universes, however

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 01-27-2017 11:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 01-29-2017 1:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 438 (797830)
01-27-2017 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
01-27-2017 1:53 PM


Re: A Job experience for ringo
In the story the God character specifically says that he will cause the flood.
But Noah trusted God...he was not trying to save himself from God....only from the flood...im sure he prayed while on the boat.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 01-27-2017 1:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 01-28-2017 6:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 438 (797908)
01-29-2017 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
01-28-2017 6:44 AM


Point /Counterpoint
Point/Counterpoint.
You say that the God character was bent on wreaking havoc. I say that the God character was targeting humanity much as Doctors target Cancer. The drug kills many healthy cells also. Noah was a healthy cell, so to speak...but I will argue that God knew that the cure was better than the disease. Whether Noah saw it this way or not is speculation. You guys may say that humans cower in fear over Gods judgments...and I've no reason to disagree. We have to respect the authority, however. One cannot simply stand up and brazenly laugh in His face.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 01-28-2017 6:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 01-29-2017 12:07 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 01-29-2017 1:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 69 by jar, posted 01-29-2017 1:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 438 (798315)
02-01-2017 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by GDR
02-01-2017 5:28 PM


Re: Hope this helps
As we agree, truth matters. We can’t have absolute knowledge of the truth but we can come to a conclusion of what we believe the truth to be.
I guess my contention would be that the answer to your original question really boils down to what we believe about Jesus. How do we respond to my signature? Is it really God that is calling us to humble justice and kindness or is it just our naturalistic human nature?
Some believe that it is the belief itself that "activates" the communion. Others believe that behavior matters and therefore the belief itself is irrelevant. Personally, I believe the former, and I think GIA is asking you to consider the belief also....even if you don't think you need it.
The peanut gallery here at EvC always pushes behavior and declares belief irrelevant. While one side says that belief matters, the other side seems to say that GOD Himself is irrelevant and that only behavior really matters...be ye atheist or Nah....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by GDR, posted 02-01-2017 5:28 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by GDR, posted 02-01-2017 6:22 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 438 (798733)
02-05-2017 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by GDR
02-01-2017 6:22 PM


Re: Hope this helps
GDR writes:
Are our beliefs and behaviors formed with or without the influence of God? As this thread is is specific to Christianity, then I'm saying that what we believe about that is based on what we believe about Jesus.
This is biblical.
Mark 8:27-29 writes:
Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, "Who do people say I am?"
They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets."
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Peter answered, "You are the Christ."
Some say Jesus existed, others do not. Some say He was just a man...others say He was more. If in fact there is a unique impartation caused by personal belief in Who He Is, Christianity becomes a revealed belief rather than simply an intellectual one.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by GDR, posted 02-01-2017 6:22 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 02-05-2017 8:02 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 85 of 438 (798762)
02-05-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
02-05-2017 8:02 AM


Re: Hope this helps
You can say exactly the same stuff about any religion.
Indeed. We can and we do.
Jesus asks "Who do you say that I am? Your answer reflects your understanding. This is more than logic, reason, and reality, jar.
Jesus is more than just another Jew.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 02-05-2017 8:02 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 438 (798764)
02-05-2017 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Stile
02-02-2017 10:17 AM


Re: Hope this helps
stile writes:
Could those little ticks at my brain just go away if I "fully believed" in the resurrection of Jesus? I don't know the answer to that question.
If they did... that seems a bit scary in the sense of ignoring certain possibilities of reality, to me.
And this is an honest answer. While some may argue that not to choose is to in fact have already chosen, others would argue that keeping a critically minded approach is a smarter move...sort of like hedging one's bets. I took the plunge and chose...thus I would feel uncomfortable throwing that decision away...makes me too wishy-washy.
stile, to GDR writes:
That's interesting... you seem to say that we get a different answer depending on how we view things... and I'm saying we get both answers (and that both are okay, and "right") depending on what sort of person we really are.
Sort of saying the same thing... and at the same time, sort of not saying the same thing
Which leads to the question: Does a definite commitment matter more than a wait-and-see stance?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Stile, posted 02-02-2017 10:17 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Stile, posted 02-07-2017 10:30 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 89 of 438 (799301)
02-09-2017 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Stile
02-07-2017 10:26 AM


Re: Hope this helps
stile writes:
I'm always looking for more and better ways to make a "better me."
But, again, I have to be the judge of whether or not something is "working" for me.
And in turn, you have to be the judge of whether or not something is "working" for you.
How could it be any other way?
But is this (or should this) be the essence of what contemplative spirituality is all about? Should any of it be about us as individuals?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Stile, posted 02-07-2017 10:26 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Stile, posted 02-09-2017 9:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 438 (799368)
02-09-2017 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Stile
02-09-2017 9:44 AM


Re: Hope this helps
I'm just contrasting me-centered spirituality with Jesus...who denied himself and never thought how he could make a better Jesus.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Stile, posted 02-09-2017 9:44 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 02-09-2017 4:36 PM Phat has replied
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 02-10-2017 11:05 AM Phat has replied
 Message 98 by Stile, posted 02-12-2017 11:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 438 (799464)
02-10-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
02-10-2017 11:05 AM


Re: Hope this helps
The target is YOU.
I have no problem with that! My point is that we need to avoid the unholy trinity: ME, Myself, and I. We help ourselves by helping others. Surely you agree with this.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 02-10-2017 11:05 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 02-11-2017 10:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 438 (799465)
02-10-2017 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
02-09-2017 4:36 PM


Re: Hope this helps
Does the Bible actually teach this lesson or are you inferring the Jesus YOU want to believe in?
I see no evidence that Jesus was later shown to be wrong.
The belief that Jesus was simply an imperfect human is your idea.
You bring Jesus down and lift humans up. Very Jewish.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 02-09-2017 4:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 02-10-2017 12:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 438 (799902)
02-17-2017 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ringo
02-17-2017 11:10 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Oh for crying out loud!
A tautology is defined as a statement that is true by necessity or by virtue of its logical form.
Why must you quibble over semantics?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 02-17-2017 11:10 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 02-18-2017 10:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 438 (800783)
02-28-2017 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Stile
02-26-2017 10:19 AM


Soulja Boy Tellem
ringo writes:
Tell that to the people on this forum who think I'm just fueling the panhandler's drug habit.
*Ahem* That would be me....
Stile writes:
Tell them to come here, or one of my other morality threads. I'll tell them.
You did a good job with your three possibilities scenarios.
The marines have a saying: Kill em all and let God sort em out.
We could argue that if we help em all with spare change, God can still sort them out....
My only argument is what constitutes "spare" change. I don't have enough money to feed the streets forever.
And that is a fully conscious decision on my part.
Edited by Phat, : added point

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Stile, posted 02-26-2017 10:19 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Stile, posted 02-28-2017 9:33 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 02-28-2017 11:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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