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Author | Topic: Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dr A writes: So, just checking in, did Dawn Bertot come up with a theistic justification of morals? As far as I can understand it, he(?) thinks he can do it by knowing stuff instinctively, thinking hard about it and telling us about something important in a book that god wrote for him.
DB writes: Of course you are wrong as usual. Somethings are demonstrate as absolute, right and wrong by simple reasoning and observation. It is absolutely true things exist. That's absolutely true. We know that God exists by the things that are made and specific revelation. Hence I can know that his decrees are absolute. I know instinctively by having it placed in me at birth by God (Romans 1:18-20) that stealing is wrong. I don't need to be taught that, correct Even if I didn't know these things instinctively, it would not mean that good or bad did not exist, any more than the law of gravity. See houw simple it is Ringo. "FOR THE WRATH OF GOD IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN AGAINST ALL UNGODLINESS AND UNRIGHTEOUNESS, FOR THEM THAT HOLD THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUNESS. FOR THAT WHICH MAY BE KNOW OF OR ABOUT GOD IS MANIFEST IN THEM, FOR GOD HATH SHOWN IT UNTO THEM (PUT IT INSIDE THEM)" Romans 1:19 Now if you could get rid of all the evidence that clearly supports the existence of God and the Bible as his Word, your task is completeJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
DB writes: So may I assume that these societies, that do this are [...] immoral in your view. Yes. And yours too I assume. You'll find those views common amongst people born and raised in the same cultures at the same time. But the fact that they are seen differently by other cultures at other times tells you that morals are not absolute doesn't it?
quote: You've had my answer several times. Your normal response is to declare victory whilst leaving everyone baffled by your answers.
quote: Because you can't answer it? Just a thought.
quote: Here's a little job for you, go back and find where I say that there's nothing wrong with Fred's behaviour. If you prefer, I can save you time by saying that there is everything wrong with it.
quote: Well here we go again. Fred's behaviour is not moral. FMG is not moral. Child sex is not moral. According to me and the society I live in. But in other societies some of those practices are considered moral.
quote: As you didn't even touch on answering my question, I'll ask it again. Here you go
Tangle writes: But you sidestepped the point as usual. Fred's morality changed. He only developed an attraction for children - and other sexually inappropriate practices - when the tumour grew. When it was removed he lost those tendencies and when the tumour returned so did the immortal behaviour. THAT is what you have to explain. Try to stick to answering that single point. How can morality be absolute if it changes?
quote: Let me help you with that - Fred's behaviour is out and out wrong. Got it?
quote: I guess we got lucky, not only have we actually got this thing called morality - we all here pretty much agree that murder is wrong for example - but we can do it without a fictional god.
quote: Yes there is we do it all the time, every day, several times a day.
quote: Nope he's still wrong. Yep, just checked again and genocide is still definately wrong.
quote: Hmmmm. The difficulty with that is that it does exist and can be shown to exist so we're in a bit of a bind here.
quote: Well jolly good for you. I agree that we shouldn't kill but I don't need a work of fiction to know that. Also people who believe in different works of fiction think that we shouldn't kill either. How does that work?
quote: Of course there is, we set the standard.
quote: Now that is the biggest non sequitur I've seen for a while. Why was Hitler objectively wrong and Hiroshima and Nagasaki were absolutely right? Please explain.
quote: Yeh, tricky for religion to explain isn't it? Easy for evolution though.
quote: It's easy, it's just fiction. You can do that when stuff is just made up.
quote: Oh I agree absolute morality does not exist in our society. That's sort of what we're all saying. It's a mash-up.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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DB writes: It tells me that morals cannot and do not exist, whether you imagine them or not. etc etc etc This entire rambling mess boils down to us saying that morality is a name we give to a category of behaviour that we feel is 'good' - that benefits the human race generally. (And the converse, that immoral behaviour is bad for us generally.) It is indeed a human invention, what's regarded as good, moral, beneficial and what's bad, harmful, detrimental has changed over time and is different between cultures. At an individual level it varies based on personality, illness, drugs, upbringing, religious belief and age. It is therefore anything but absolute and unchanging.. We can evidence all this with history, anthropology, neuroscience, evolutionary biology and behavioural psychology. You yourself know all this to be true. As far as I understand your position, it's that all of that is made up stuff by people and that morality is god given and absolute. Well to make a start on that you'd have to demonstrate the existence of this god - which you can't. Or demonstrate the existence of an absolute morality, which you can't. Of the two, I suggest the latter was the easier of two impossible tasks, why not have a crack at it? But just to be clear, quoting chunks of fantasy novels isn't going to be accepted as evidence. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
DB writes: I know this is very frustrating for you and I can even hear the frustration in your words, but these are the issues the Atheist needs to deal with, if they are going to claim that they can actually have something reality called morality I and many others here have demonstrated what morality is. So far you have not. Why don't you tell us instead of all this waffle?
Human behavior is no better or worse than any other species on the planet. The concept of good and bad behaviour is a human one. (Although several social species have devised 'rules' for living together.)
This is why things like good and bad cannot actually exist in a Naturalistic universe Yet we are intelligent enough to recognize thier behavior as not immoral, because humans have invented that term. It's a self defeating proposition Humans did indeed invent the term to describe positive and negative behaviours. In doing so they demonstrate that the terms 'morality' or 'good' do in fact refer to something real in the 'naturalistic universe'. Had it not existed we wouldn't have created a term for it.
Why? You get to quote whoever and whatever you want correct? Are you saying that you can't tell us what morality is without quoting from your man-made fantasy novel? Well I can. It seems that atheists can explain morality but fundamentalist god botherers can't.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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DB writes:
It's not frustrating at all, it's rather interesting watching you tie yourself into knots arguing the absurd. It's reminds me of reading Alice in Wonderland. I know this is very frustrating for you and I can even hear the frustration in your words, but these are the issues the Atheist needs to deal with, if they are going to claim that they can actually have something reality called morality As it turns out morality is not something us atheists have to deal with. We, like everyone else on the planet barring psychopaths but including yourself, know that morality exists and how it works. But you have made the claim that we don't, and so far you haven't been able to show us why.
There is more here than just you or humans calling things good or bad, No there isn't. That's our entire position. As you think there is you're going to have to prove it.
Why? You get to quote whoever and whatever you want correct? Why should something written in a book 2,000 years ago by people we don't know and that contradicts itself all over the place, particularly over morality, have any baring on anything at all? In any case, you're talking about atheists, you know, those people that don't believe in your god? How do you expect to make a case using what they regard as a work of fiction? You fail before you start. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
DB writes: Well we are using what YOU and the others here that are saying to try come come to some truth correct. Nope. We are all very happy with our understanding of morality. It's you that makes the claim that we can't be. So you need to tell us - without waffle about 'meat in motion' or reference to man-made works of fiction - what this absolute morality of yours is. So far you haven't got anywhere near a reasoned explanation. If this thing exists you'd be able to give us a real life example - why don't you? Of course, if you're just going to say 'it's God' (and the Christian god only) then there's really no further discussion necessary. It's a straight fail.
I'm defending it's morality. Perhaps if you can demonstrate that it's morality does not correspond to what we see in reality and that which relates to humans, you can further demonstrate it's not valid as a source of morality, correct? Gibberish. It might help if you slow down.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
DB writes: Well no, fortunately your not the person that sets the rules here, nor do you decide how I go about demonstrating So you're unable to give an example of an absolutely morality..... How then are we to conclude that it exist?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
DB writes: So why my friend did you assume I was unable to show you absolute morality and how and why it exists. Because, my friend, so far you have failed to provide a single example of an absolute morality. Show me one, it should be simple enough. What's the problem?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
DB writes: Yes I would say that's a valid argument.... I'd say that it was repetitive, error-ridden word play but let's put that aside. What I asked you for was an example of absolute morality. If the only example of absolute morality you can think of is your imagined God, I'm going to shrug and move on because he is, as I say, imaginary. Morality and moral behaviour is a real and measureable effect in our world so I'm asking you to produce the thing that you call absolute so that we can examine it. Surely you have an example?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes: Paul got it right in his first letter to the Corinthians when he says that ultimately God will judge the motives of our hearts. Ah, that old phoney - conscience :-) The universal get out of jail card. The first time I tripped over the argument was with the Catholic position on birth control. The Vatican ruled it out. Flat wrong. An absolute. If the intention is to avoid having a baby, it's a sin. Intention = conscience = 'what's in your heart'. But they came up against the modern Western populous who basically told them to take a hike and totally ignored this 'mortal sin' that would condemn them to hell for all eternity. So the Catholic church faced with a total revolt rolled over decided that it's a matter of conscience and if people truly believed it was ok, then it was ok. Meawhile it was still a mortal sin for the poor bloody Africans and millions died and are dying from AIDS for lack of condom use. You see, what's in people's 'hearts' varies between people, education levels, cultures and times. Eating people is wrong, but only if you're not a cannibal. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: But you’re missing the point. You are taking your view and the views of others and finding them not to be in agreement of what constitutes sin. I'm not missing the point of the thread which is about moral absolutes which it seems we agree on. So not agreeing on what constitutes sin is the entire point - if we all have differing 'hearts' on these issues, then morality is not absolute. Then it gets to be real fun. If the 'heart' of Jack the Ripper was true to itself, and believed that slicing and dicing prostitutes in the East End of London was the right thing to do, then your god has to accept that it's ok. I happens to agree with him - intent is was counts - but it's not ok is it? Certainly not in Dawn's world.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: I would say that there is such a thing as absolute morality in the Christian sense in that we are called to have hearts that love sacrificially That's just meaningless preachy drivel.
The most likely motive that we can see for his actions was that he took pleasure in killing and the prostitutes were soft targets. Possibly he felt that the world was a better place without them but that completely goes against everything that Jesus taught. In either case I think that as a Christian I can judge his actions to be absolutely wrong. The thing is that neither you nor I could do, or would want to do, what Jack did. There's a reason for that - it's the way his brain is set-up. It's not a disease or illness it's a design flaw. His brain worked in different ways to ours - by definition. He can't be doing wrong in the terms of your god's definition because he didn't see it as wrong, pychopaths don't, they can't. They know that society thinks it's wrong but it's not wrong in their 'hearts'. (I hate that term, it's wet, whooly and entirely inaccurate.) Yet we can say it's absolutely wrong, diagreeing with your God.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Dawn B writes: Being an Atheist, a person void of ACTUAL morality Woah.....you believe that I have no morality? That I'm immoral? Is this just another one of your brainfarts or do you really mean it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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1.6... writes: It is my belief that there is such a thing as universal taboos. I used a example of a Neanderthal stalking a female and copulating with her by force. Those who I was having this discussion with contended that the concept of "Rape" has yet to be invented therefore rape did not exist.Nor does rape exist in the animal world. I think this is a bit confused, the concept of rape may not have existed - who knows - but the concept of harm will have certainly existed. Neanderthals were social creatures and will have developed norms of behaviour within their tribes. It may be that abduction and rape was ok between tribes but not within them. It may be that the dominant male had sole rights of reproduction. We don't know, but we can say with a strong degree of certainty that social rules would have been developed. Some of them are likely to be abhorrent to us, some recognisable today. Societies form their own rules that allow them to co-operate. 'Twas always thus.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
DB writes: In a purely naturalistic enviornment Jack's actions would be no different than you running down the chicken to ring his neck. You are just imagining his actions as Wrong and yours as somehow moral. Hohum. Here we go again. Did you imagine that if you repeated this claptrap often enough we'd suddenly agree with it? I, you and everyone else here 'imagines' that Jack's actions are wrong. Depending on whether you're a vegitarian or not, we'd also have no difficulty eating chicken. But nobody but a loon would equate the actions of Jack the Ripper with the actions of someone that enjoys a KFC. We are carnivores, carnivores eat meat. God made us that way according to you. (Strictly speaking we're omnivores but the point still stands.) So where do you think that gets you?
What mental moral principle allows you to kill and eat the chicken, without any feeling of guilt and or immorality. The fact that our biology allows it and at most points in our development has required it. If I was a herbivore I wouldn't eat chicken. Now what's really interesting is that I can imagine a time in the future where killing and eating animals will be regarded as immoral. We will grow our protein in vitro. Our view of what's moral in our food will have changed.
I dont suppose you will For good to be actually good it has to come from a source outside the human mind Demonstrably false. Now, I've asked you three times for an example of this absolute morality of yours. Where is it? Where is this moral that comes from a outside the human mind?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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