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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 427 of 1006 (801549)
03-07-2017 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by Phat
03-07-2017 1:44 PM


Re: the essence of existence (in actual reality)
Phat writes:
Dawns basic argument is that God exists.(Premise #1) objective morality is defined by God as is subjectivity itself.(Conclusion #1) The problem with Dawns position is that he is trying to use what he believes as objective reality(God) to win the argument against the reality of subjectivity having any validity.
Er no. Modulus will unpick it all for you but your conclusion is a premise. It also does not follow that if a god exists he has any input to morality or that if he did, that we wouldn't find this god immoral ourselves. A god does not have to be moral nor objective.
Dawn's edicts are nothing more than bald assertions that are proven wrong by reality. All he's saying is that he believes in the Christian god of the bible. Well so what? He can't even give us a real world example of an absolute moral.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by Phat, posted 03-07-2017 1:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 440 of 1006 (801589)
03-08-2017 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 436 by Dawn Bertot
03-08-2017 6:23 AM


Re: Absolutes
Dawn B writes:
Really Tangle, etc etc
Please answer the questions, your circular and irrational blathering is not getting you anywhere.
For the fourth time, please provide an example of an absolute moral.
You said that I, as an atheist, have no morals. I questioned whether you actually meant that. Now is the time to explain yourself.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-08-2017 6:23 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-09-2017 6:51 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 450 of 1006 (801707)
03-09-2017 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 445 by Dawn Bertot
03-09-2017 6:51 AM


Re: Absolutes
Dawn B writes:
I'm saying it is not logically possible for you to have that which you percieve you have, in a purely naturalistic enviornment
And yet I do. And I can show how and why. Weird how reality works.
Actually you have morals you just miss apply the source of those morals, as not being from God.
Yes, we know that goddit is your assertion. But as I've said, that's a fail

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-09-2017 6:51 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 454 of 1006 (801712)
03-09-2017 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 447 by Dawn Bertot
03-09-2017 6:55 AM


Re: Ding an sich
Dawn B writes:
Yes. Without the pineapple, there would be NO taste. With nothing to put in your mouth, there would be nothing to have taste or imagine tastiness, correct? So while the potential for your ability to taste at all, or to imagine tasiness, would exist as another objective reality, it would need to be predicated by an objective in reality, outside yourself, correct?
So, your position is that there needs to be an object for us to be subjective about. We can't say whether we like the taste of a pineapple if it doesn't exist? This is your position?
So, for the fifth time of asking. Please produce an example of your objective morality. Just one will be fine to start with. Then we can tell you whether we like the taste of it or not.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-09-2017 6:55 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by jar, posted 03-09-2017 8:38 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 467 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-11-2017 11:20 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 456 of 1006 (801714)
03-09-2017 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 455 by jar
03-09-2017 8:38 AM


Re: Ding an sich
jar writes:
We can't say we love unicorns and leprechauns or find rainbows beautiful even though they really don't exist?
That idea doesn't seem to be registering with Dawn.....in fact the very idea of an idea is being rejected by Dawn.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by jar, posted 03-09-2017 8:38 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by RAZD, posted 03-09-2017 9:36 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 475 of 1006 (802047)
03-11-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by Dawn Bertot
03-11-2017 11:20 AM


Re: Ding an sich
Dawn B writes:
Well yes, duh. There could be no taste of a pineapple if one didn't exist correct? There has to be actual human and animal behavior before you can imagine it as good or bad, correct. But even if you imagine what is good or bad
Ok, without the object the subjective doesn't exist - your position.
So, for the sixth time.
PLEASE PROVIDE AN EXAMPLE OF AN OBJECT and/or ABSOLUTE MORAL so that we can decide whether it's good or bad.
If you can't do this I must conclude that such a thing does not exist.
Where's the pineapple?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-11-2017 11:20 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 504 of 1006 (804656)
04-11-2017 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by Dredge
04-11-2017 7:52 PM


Dredge writes:
My point is, an atheist who believes that evolution is a scientific fact cannot argue that a human life is worth more than a life of a bug - because to do so is to contradcit the very science he holds to be true.
Tell me, is this also true of a Christian who believes that evolution is a scientific fact?
Such an atheist must also accept that since life is the product of a blind, meaningless process, life itself is meaningless. So he cannot argue that his life has meaning because to do so is to contradict the very science he holds to be true.
And again, it this also true of hundreds of millions of Christians?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Dredge, posted 04-11-2017 7:52 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by Dredge, posted 04-15-2017 7:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 519 of 1006 (804717)
04-12-2017 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by Faith
04-12-2017 3:50 PM


Re: Good post Dredge
We create our own meanings Faith. You've chosen a meaning from your book, others chose meanings from different books.
Prior to books there were many competing local gods - both good and evil that people looked to. There were ancestors, trees, mountains, animals, stars, kings, healers, charatans, spirits etc etc - almost anything would do - we just had to pin our hopes on them. These belief systems change over time - none of them are immutable.
Buddhists believe that simply looking for meaning is what causes dissatisfaction - nirvana is achieved by accepting what is not striving to understand more.
Most atheists say that because life is quite probably totally accidental we need to enjoy just being alive. Which is quite easy to do. Being alive is pretty cool.
It really doesn't matter where we find our meanings unless we try to inflict them on each other - though, of course, I would argue that the more rational the thing we find meaning in, the better for all of us.
I enjoyed reading Davidjay's nonsensical rant explaing why atheists are so depressed and can't explain ethics and morality. I think he needs to meet a few.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by Faith, posted 04-12-2017 3:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 550 of 1006 (804792)
04-13-2017 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by Dredge
04-13-2017 1:59 AM


Dredge writes:
Yes, okay; an atheist can argue that a human is of more worth than a bug, but his argument is based on nothing more his own opinion, an opinion that isn't supported by science.
And if we asked a bug, the bug would say his life was more important that a humans.
And you know what? You'd get that answer from the bug whether he has an atheist, a scientist or a religionist.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Dredge, posted 04-13-2017 1:59 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 600 of 1006 (805058)
04-15-2017 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 597 by Faith
04-15-2017 7:58 AM


Re: The three scientific demotions of humanity
Faith writes:
But the idea of science demoting humanity from a sense of specialness AS human is certainly there.
Science just states what is. What we make of it is up to us.
You've got over the ego problem of us being just up-market beasts by choosing to believe a fantasy made of heavens, gods and souls and such, thereby elevating your importance.
Us atheists just shrug and get on with life.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by Faith, posted 04-15-2017 7:58 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 617 of 1006 (805129)
04-16-2017 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by Dredge
04-15-2017 7:24 PM


Dredge writes:
No, a Christian doesn't believe that a human is worth as the same as a bug because a Christian believes humans are made in the image of God and the Bible also says God values humans other creatures. God says killing another human is a serious sin but killing a bug in not a very serious sin (or perhaps not even a sin at all).
So a Christians who accepts evolution doesn't have to believe that he's worth the same as a bug. That's kind of interesting as atheists that accept evolution don't either. So we can now drop all that bollocks about having to can't we.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Dredge, posted 04-15-2017 7:24 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 8:03 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 646 by Dredge, posted 04-17-2017 9:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 622 of 1006 (805141)
04-16-2017 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 618 by Faith
04-16-2017 8:03 AM


Faith writes:
Such a simple idea
Simple minded is closer
The idea is that evolution as a theory and a worldview doesn't give any grounds for assessing a human being as any more important than a bug in the large scheme of things.
The ToE is a scientific theory; it's not a world view. The theory simply says that all life descended from other life. (And shows how.) Given that we also know that we are all made of the same stuff - from mushrooms to snails to aardvarks to people - this isn't terribly surprising really.
Individual believers in evolution may not have such a view (although it does have to influence you whether you know it or not) but what individuals think isn't the point.
I know of no-one that is of this view and neither do you.
The absence of anyone that thinks he's no more important than a bug is rather devastating to your argument don't you think?
All kinds of SUBJECTIVE views are possible but the point is that the theory itself, the worldview it promotes itself, gives no grounds whatever for assigning different values to bugs versus humans. this has been explained many times already. It's not difficult.
Well apart from it not being a world view, you're absolutely correct. The ToE is totally mute on your point. It neither states nor implies that one organism is any better or any worse that any other. "this has been explained many times already. It's not difficult."
Neither you nor I get our self-worth from the ToE. You have it as a God given thing, I have it as a human given thing. 'I think therefore I am.'
This silly idea of the ToE as a worldview is purely a creationist idea, it's derived from the fact that it contradicts the literal interpretation of the bible. This contradiction is irrelevant to science. You will carry on spouting this nonsense - it seems nothing can stop you - just don't pretend it's correct or even relevant.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 8:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 10:30 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 644 by Dredge, posted 04-17-2017 8:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 630 of 1006 (805170)
04-16-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 626 by Faith
04-16-2017 10:30 AM


Faith writes:
The thing about the ToE is that it defines a human being.
Nope, it defines the theory of evolution.
It's not like the theories of the physical world, gravity or whatnot, it defines what a human being is.
No it doesn't.
And people DO take it as a worldview and it does influence their views of how life should be lived.
By people you mean you and other creationists. No rational person considers the ToE when working out their world view. You're talking nonsense.
I'm sure it did mine.
There you go.
It has nothing to do with psychobabble concepts like self worth, it's about the nature of the human being itself.
That's correct, it hasn't, that's what we're saying. It's your side that's saying that our worth is equivalent to bugs.
If we're animals that descended from animals why should we have any obligation to ...anything in particular?
Because we have evolved a thinking brain.
If we're animals there is also no objective moral authority.
We are all agreed on that. We've argued that at length.
It's clear we have some kind of built in morality but it's all over the map, it's not like we have reliable instincts the way many animals do, so our nature leaves us a lot of leeway, thinking of ourselves as merely animals. Do whatever you can get away with is a moral principle that one could infer from this.
Yes, we have consciousnes and thinking skills.
Living by God's authority is something entirely different.
Agreed. But that has got nothing whatsoever to do with the ToE.
Admit it, the creationist's obsession with the ToE is purely because it contradicts a literal analysis of your book.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 10:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 4:50 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 645 by Dredge, posted 04-17-2017 9:07 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 633 of 1006 (805181)
04-16-2017 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Faith
04-16-2017 4:50 PM


Faith writes:
It says we descended from something apelike. It says we are animals, that our ancestors are animals.
Yes, so much is obvious. We're made out of the same stuff.
Even without the ToE we'd still be saying that we're another animal. It's totally undeniable even by you. Your entire position is that we're an animal that god gave a soul.
Some people do make a worldview out of this scientific claim.
Who makes a world view out of this claim (fact)?
It isn't you or anyone that holds your beliefs. So who is it? Is it all those atheists like me? It's in your own head Faith. There is no such thing as an evolution world view. Your objection is purely bible related.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 4:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 652 of 1006 (805355)
04-18-2017 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 644 by Dredge
04-17-2017 8:53 PM


Dredge writes:
I've already mentioned the atheist who told me, "We're just grubs." No doubt there are more atheists who think the same way.
As usual, you're being disingenuous. Did you clarify what he meant by asking him if his daughter's or mother's life was worth no more to him than a bug's? You didn't, did you? But imagine you had, what do you think his answer would be?
Nonsense. Read the conclusions atheist William Provine came to, based on his belief in ToE. It shaped his entire approach to life. Provine also said "Evolution is the greatest engine for atheism ever invented."
There are many theists who abandoned religion as a result of believing ToE to be true. Richard Dawkins speaks of the influence ToE has had on his worldview.
What has any of that got to do with a world view?
The ToE is a scientific fact. It explains how life here developed. It's no more a world view than a round earth, anti-geocentricity or old-earth geology (there isn't a new-earth geology btw). These are just facts, not world views.
These are simply sciences that contradict the primitive beliefs of a few that hold that the world is as claimed by some ancient mythology written in a book of stories. Who cares? Their fantasies are irrelevant when considering reality.
Millions more accept evolution, old earth and the earth spinning round the sun (which is just a minor star amongst trillions of others) and still hold religious beliefs. The discovery that our little star is not the centre of the universe, not that important, is very old and that we ourselves are made of the same stuff as all organisms allowed them to think realistically about their beliefs.
I would imagine there are many millions of people in the world whose outlook on life has been influenced as a result of taking ToE seriously.
That is certainly true. When Darwin published his ideas in the 19th century it shocked the Christian world. And it still offends people like you who feel the need to cling to a primitive mythology. That's just too bad, facts are facts - get over it if you can and join the real world. It has certainly changed people's view of the world - it informs a world view - it has influenced my atheism (but it didn't cause it). But it isn't a world view in its own right. Just as my acceptance of germ theory isn't a world view but it did change people's beliefs about disease and their cures.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Dredge, posted 04-17-2017 8:53 PM Dredge has not replied

  
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