Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What's the difference between Islam and Radical Islam?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 16 of 146 (801574)
03-07-2017 9:24 PM


On radical terrorist groups
We tend to forget that terrorist organizations are not really something new nor are they unique to any particular culture. The commander of a Jewish Terrorist organization the Irgun, that bombed British forces into leaving Palestine (yup, it was Arab Palestine before there was a modern Israel) ended up the Prime Minister of modern Israel. And the British were not the only target of the Irgun, Palestinian government offices, businesses and citizens were also targeted.
The US has funded, supported and even created terrorist groups when it suited US economic or political interests to destabilize a region or overthrow a government.
The goal of terrorism is to cause the other side to over respond. The attack of 9-11 was never a threat to the US, it was a tragedy but the biggest tragedy was that it was a surprise. The reality was that there had been several best selling novels before then that used the plot device of flying a hijacked plane into politically sensitive targets.
The biggest difference between the stories and reality is that in the stories the response shows a limited and strategic retaliation against the actual planners of the attacks and not absolutely silly invasions of two nations that had absolutely nothing to do with planning or executing the attacks.
Our response was far more than the terrorist planners could have ever hoped for.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin int ----> into sill ---> silly

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 17 of 146 (801575)
03-07-2017 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Modulous
03-07-2017 8:50 PM


Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?
Worldwide religions:
Islam, 1.6 billion
Judaism 14 million
List of religious populations - Wikipedia

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Modulous, posted 03-07-2017 8:50 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 03-07-2017 9:34 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 29 by Modulous, posted 03-08-2017 1:02 PM Coyote has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 18 of 146 (801576)
03-07-2017 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Coyote
03-07-2017 9:30 PM


Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?
Coyote writes:
Worldwide religions:
Islam, 1.6 billion
Judaism 14 million
Lost me there. What could that possibly have to do with the topic?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Coyote, posted 03-07-2017 9:30 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 19 of 146 (801578)
03-08-2017 5:07 AM


Islam history; Muslim supports terrorism; how to vet refugees
Some videos that may cast some light on the true nature of Islam:
A short history of Islam, by Brigitte Gabriel; how it became violent and its violent history since then. First six minutes up through the Crusades. About 9:50 on the counter she talks about how there is today a true Islam that is violent, those who follow the true Islam of Mohammed are violent. The Wahhabis, and now ISIS is the true inheritor of true Islam, resurrected the Califate which had lasted 1400 years, ending in 1924. Saudi oil and the Ayatollah Khomeini resurrected it. ISIS is its latest form.
/
/

/
/
David Horowitz confronts a Muslim audience member at UCB: She affirms her support of terrorist organizations and the plan to kill Jews:
ABE: Ooo, forgot to mention she announced their annual "Hitler Youth Week." Woops. Why are our universities allowing such things> Milos Yiannopolis is persona non grata but Hitler Youth Week is OK? Of course just the fact that she endorses terrorist organizations and the statement that it's good if all the Jews are in Israel so they can be wiped out all at once -- to my mind that should get her prosecuted right there./abe
/

/
/
Bill Warner has many videos up about Islam too. This one is fairly short, his response to the proposal to vet the Muslim refugees. About 2:10 he lists everything about Shariah law that we need to say no to; From about 3:17 he spells out an oath he thinks should be taken by Muslims seeking to enter the US, which he thinks would be more of a protection of American security than the way things are now:
/
/
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 03-08-2017 5:56 AM Faith has replied
 Message 28 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-08-2017 12:42 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 31 by Modulous, posted 03-08-2017 1:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 20 of 146 (801579)
03-08-2017 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
03-08-2017 5:07 AM


Re: Islam history; Muslim supports terrorism; how to vet refugees
what good is an oath? People can lie....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 03-08-2017 5:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 03-08-2017 8:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 23 by jar, posted 03-08-2017 9:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 21 of 146 (801582)
03-08-2017 6:21 AM


Great, more videos of people saying something.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 146 (801590)
03-08-2017 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
03-08-2017 5:56 AM


Re: Islam history; Muslim supports terrorism; how to vet refugees
I wondered about that too, Phat, but then it occurred to me if they take an oath and violate it they can be prosecuted, maybe even deported.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 03-08-2017 5:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 146 (801591)
03-08-2017 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
03-08-2017 5:56 AM


Re: Islam history; Muslim supports terrorism; how to vet refugees
You do know that everyone applying for a Visa to enter the US already is asked what their purpose is in visiting the US don't you? And lying on a Visa application is sufficient grounds for deportation already.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 03-08-2017 5:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 24 of 146 (801592)
03-08-2017 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coyote
03-07-2017 8:43 PM


Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?
Bullshit.
Gee, that is an effective well thought out argument.
But when you don't have facts or logic you have to go with what you do have.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Coyote, posted 03-07-2017 8:43 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 25 of 146 (801593)
03-08-2017 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Coyote
03-07-2017 8:49 PM


Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?
not worth it
Edited by Theodoric, : Petty

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Coyote, posted 03-07-2017 8:49 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 26 of 146 (801594)
03-08-2017 9:37 AM


'Twas the Mormons
Mormons have a long history of terrorism.
Mountain Meadows Massacre - Wikipedia
The Book of Mormon calls for terrorism against non-believers.
http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_terrorism.htm

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 146 (801599)
03-08-2017 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Modulous
03-07-2017 8:35 PM


Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?
Sorry, did I say Muslims? I meant to say Jews all along.
I agree that we shouldn't forget those things, but do you have anything a little more contemporary? Like, that isn't almost 80 years old?
'Cause that would be a little more comparable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Modulous, posted 03-07-2017 8:35 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Modulous, posted 03-08-2017 1:06 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 28 of 146 (801606)
03-08-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
03-08-2017 5:07 AM


Please explain something Faith.
quote:
The Wahhabis, and now ISIS is the true inheritor of true Islam, resurrected the Califate which had lasted 1400 years, ending in 1924. Saudi oil and the Ayatollah Khomeini resurrected it. ISIS is its latest form.
The Ayatollah Khomeini part caught my attention as it needs some explanation from you to lump it in with the others.
The Shi'a have a view of a hidden Imam.
quote:
Shi'a belief[edit]
Main articles: Succession to Muhammad, Shia Islam, and Imamah (Shia doctrine)
The Shia believe in the Imamate, a principle by which rulers are Imams who are divinely chosen, infallible, and sinless and must come from the Ahl al-Bayt regardless of majority opinion, shura or election. They claim that before his death, Muhammad had given many indications, in the hadith of the pond of Khumm in particular, that he considered Ali, his cousin and son-in-law, as his successor. For the Twelvers, Ali and his eleven descendants, the twelve Imams, are believed to have been considered, even before their birth, as the only valid Islamic rulers appointed and decreed by God.
Main article: Islamic Government: Governance of the Jurist
After these Twelve Imams, the potential Caliphs, had passed, and in the absence of the possibility of a government headed by their Imams, some Twelvers believe it was necessary that a system of Shi'i Islamic government based on the Guardianship of the Islamic Jurist be developed, due to the need for some form of government, where an Islamic jurist or faqih rules Muslims, suffices. However this idea, developed by the marja' Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and established in Iran, is not universally accepted among the Shia.
Ismailis believe in the Imamate principle mentioned above, but they need not be secular rulers as well.
The Nizari continue to have a living Imam; the current Imam is the Aga Khan.
The Taiyabi Ismaili have, since the year 1130, followed the Imam's chief officer, the Dai al-Mutlaq, as they believe the Imams are in a state of hiding.
Caliphate - Wikipedia
Google&*
This concept should be familiar to you. Remember the issue of Elijah? Remember how the Gospel of John saw the Baptist get asked if he was Elijah. He said he wasn't but then said that "One" will come after him.
quote:
The Oxford Bible Commentary - Page 964 - Google Books Result
isbn:0199277184 - Google Search
John Barton, ‎John Muddiman - 2007 - ‎Religion
If the expression after me comes a man alludes to Elijah, Jesus is considered as the hidden Elijah, who already existed before the Baptist. But the latter also underlines Jesus' pre-existence (cf.
...
Here is what the Encyclopedia Iranica article said.
quote:
In Imamism the eschatological savior is Abu’l-Qāsem Moḥammad b. Ḥasan al-ʿAskarī, the twelfth and last Imam of the Twelvers, usually called by one of his many titles: al-mahdī (the rightly guided), al- montaẓar (the awaited), ṣāḥeb al-zamān (lord of the age), al-ḡāʾeb (the hidden), al-ḥojja/ḥojjat Allāh (the proof [of God]), ṣāḥeb al-amr (lord of the cause), ṣāḥeb al-ḥaqq (lord of the truth), baqīyat Allāh (the remnant of God), and most often al-qāʾem (he who will rise, he who will raise, or the resurrector; on this last term and its different meanings, see Nawbaḵtī, pp. 90 ff.; Qomī, pp. 102 ff.; Sachedina, 1981, passim; Madelung, EI2 IV, pp. 456-57). The date traditionally given for his birth is 15 aʿbān 256/18 July 870. At the death of his father, the eleventh Imam, in 260/874 he entered his first, or lesser, occultation (al-ḡayba al-ṣoḡrā),
....
The religious cause. The Qāʾem will come to reestablish the lost sense of the sacred. He will first reestablish Islam in its original purity and integrity. Other religions (specifically Judaism and Christianity), equally abandoned and distorted, will also be restored to their original truth. It is said in fact that the Mahdi will bring all the holy books of the past out from the cavern where they are hidden and will apply their precepts among their respective followers (Ebn Bābūya Ṣadūq, 1405/1985, pp. 342 ff.; Ebn ʿAyyā, pp. 181 ff.). According to some traditions, this cavern is located at Antioch, information probably originally based on a Hadith reported by Kaʿb al-Aḥbār and circulated by Maṭar b. Ṭahmān (see above). In their essential truth these religions are identical with Islam, and it is doubtless in this sense that claims that the Mahdi will impose Islam on all the inhabitants of the earth are to be understood. According to some rare traditions, the Qāʾem will introduce a new order, a new book, a new law, a new sunna (Noʿmānī, pp. 336, 368, 372), which seems to indicate a new religion abrogating Islam and a new book abrogating the Koran (a belief of Qarmaṭian origin, according to Nawbaḵtī, p. 88).
....
Imamism inherited a number of elements, including eschatological elements, from its predecessors, for example, the ancient Iranian religions and heterodox Judeo-Christian sects of the first centuries of the Common Era;
That was the Iranica Imami Shi'a eschatology article. I linked weeks ago.
Don't forget the Manichean influence.
quote:
ESCHATOLOGY ii. Manichean Eschatology
ESCHATOLOGY
ii. Manichean Eschatology
Manichean eschatology, teachings about final things, provided information on what happened during and after the death of a single human being and also on what would happen before and at the end of this world. These two aspects were, however, less discernible than in other religions such as Christianity and Zoroastrianism. Teaching about the transmigration of the soul, peculiar to Manicheism, linked the fates of the unredeemed majority of individuals after death with the judgment at the end of time.
....
A meager representation of eschatological circumstances, with several unique or supplementary features, is also to be found in fragment M 35 of the Parthian Ārdahang wifrās, from which W. B. Henning has published the description of the great fire on the reverse side (1943-46, pp. 71-72). On the obverse the text is about the kingdom of Christ (called Jesus and not Xradiahr) and provides chronological information and the announcement that under Jesus’ reign the last dwellers in the world will leave this earth: . . . vanishes, and belief is sent down to man. Tenth: Jesus’ (yyw) wounds will be shown to every one of them. Eleventh: The elect (dēnāvarān) will decide for themselves to leave their bodies (izgām). Twelfth: They will be without sadness, without cold, without heat, and without desire, because, while the angels will col(lect and?) purify the whole world before him, as [. . .] and a royal palace, [when] the ruler comes. And Christ (myhʾ) will remain with the elect 120 years. And the world will remain empty of inhabitants for 100 years. Tree(s). . .
....
From the text of both the Coptic homily and the Middle Persian ābuhragān the massive influence of Christian apocalyptic is clear. The example of the judgment pericope (Matthew 25:31-46) has already been cited; it was also assimilated in characteristic fashion to the understanding of Manichean docetic christology (Asmussen, p. 86). As Koenen has systematically shown, however, many other New Testament citations and motifs can be identified, from the Revelation of John (Koenen, 1986, pp. 300-301, 303-5) and in one instance from the Gospel of Mark (12:36) in Manichean reinterpretation: A promise said in the Gospel to have been made by Christ was attributed to primal man by the Manicheans (Koenen, 1986, p. 307). The synoptic apocalypse Jesus played an especially large role among these sources (cf. Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21); a small piece of it has now been found in the Manichean Otani fragment 6152, the contents of which can be compared with Mark 13:9-11 and Luke 21:12-14. Of Christian origin also must be such an essential part of the Manichean apocalypse as the rule of Christ at the end of time (cf. Revelation 19-20). That all the relevant passages were incorporated from the canonical Gospels is very improbable.
For the judgment pericope, Jes Asmussen has demonstrated dependence upon the Diatessaron or another, similar, harmonizing text that no longer survives (pp. 86-87). The millennial kingdom of Christ is also an established part of such apocryphal writings as the Gospel of Elias and the oracle of Hystaspes, which was interpreted in a Christian sense by Lactantius (Koenen, 1986, p. 310). In the latter text the great king of heaven is glossed as Christ. In the Manichean version he duplicates the Christ figure. Koenen supposed convincingly that it was in Jewish Christian (Elkesaite) circles that this literature was cultivated and that Mani was entrusted with it (Koenen, 1986, pp. 310-14, 332). On the role of the Antichrist one must turn especially to the Apocalypse of Elias (La Bible, pp. 1803-24).
Koenen also recognized, however, an indirect influence of the Egyptian apocalypse on Manichean teaching about the end of time. The most convincing example is the previously unexplained duration of the world fire of 1,468 years, that is, a Sothis period of 1,461 years plus a year week of seven years (Koenen, 1986, pp. 314, 321-26).
ESCHATOLOGY ii. Manichean Eschatology — Encyclopaedia Iranica
Influence from Christianity and Elijah Christian apocalyptic texts are evident.
How much would you say the Shi'a have in common with Christian views verses Sunni views?
Where are the parallels?
Please parse it all for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 03-08-2017 5:07 AM Faith has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 29 of 146 (801608)
03-08-2017 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Coyote
03-07-2017 9:30 PM


Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?
Bullshit
What's bullshit?
Islam, 1.6 billion
Judaism 14 million
I'm pretty sure those figures are basically correct. Source.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Coyote, posted 03-07-2017 9:30 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 30 of 146 (801609)
03-08-2017 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by New Cat's Eye
03-08-2017 10:24 AM


Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?
I agree that we shouldn't forget those things, but do you have anything a little more contemporary? Like, that isn't almost 80 years old?
'Cause that would be a little more comparable.
Does it make it easier to recognize radical religious groups and the environments that spawn them if they are less than 50 years ago or something? Also, some of the examples happened in the last year (for instance forcing religious modesty norms on women, segregation on planes, spitting at little girls and calling them whores).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-08-2017 10:24 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-08-2017 1:20 PM Modulous has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024