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Author Topic:   Change one Article of the Constitution -- Which one?
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19100
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1 of 10 (800818)
02-28-2017 2:00 PM


Article 5 - Amendment
If you could Change one Article of the , ...

Which one would you choose?

So many to choose from, what would be the most critical? For example:

quote:
Article 5 - Amendment

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.


First delete the anachronistic part: Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article;

Then I would change 3/4ths to 2/3rds and clarify that passage by each of the states would be by simple majority, either by their legislatures or by popular vote on Ballot Initiatives (in lieu of state conventions).

So it would read:

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose, and vote on Amendments to this Constitution, or, by the passage of identical amendments by two thirds of the several States, either by simple majority vote of the Legislatures of the states or, by the passage by simple majority vote of Ballot Initiatives in the States, which, in any Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by dronestar, posted 02-28-2017 3:35 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-01-2017 1:35 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 7 by frako, posted 03-01-2017 3:31 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1375
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 2 of 10 (800825)
02-28-2017 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-28-2017 2:00 PM


Re: Article 5 - Amendment
Hey RAZD, you ol' colonialist.

Why did you choose the particular fraction: 2/3rds? What's your thinking?

_______________________________________________

Why not list the seven articles of the constitution for easy reference:

Article 1
Article of the Constitution that defines the Legislative Branch, it's powers, members, and workings.
Article 2
Article of the Constitution that defines the Executive Branch, it's powers, duties, and means of removal.
Article 3
Article of the Constitution that sets up the Judicial Branch and defines treason.
Article 4
Article of the Constitution that regulates the states' powers, and their interaction with the National government.
Article 5
Article of the Constitution that sets up the amendment process.
Article 6
Article of the Constitution that sets the status of the Constitution as the supreme law of the land, to which leaders must be loyal.
Article 7
Article of the Constitution that addresses ratification and declares that the constitution should take affect if 9 out of 13 states ratify.

__________________________________________________

For the hell of it, here's the constitutional amendments (I always thought the 23rd amendment was a sham):

1st
Prohibits Congress from making any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

2nd
Protects the right to keep and bear arms.

3rd
Places restrictions on the quartering of soldiers in private homes without the owner's consent, prohibiting it during peacetime. September 25, 1789 December 15, 1791

4th
Prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures and sets out requirements for search warrants based on probable cause as determined by a neutral judge or magistrate. September

5th
Sets out rules for indictment by grand jury and eminent domain, protects the right to due process, and prohibits self-incrimination and double jeopardy.

6th
Protects the right to a fair and speedy public trial by jury, including the rights to be notified of the accusations, to confront the accuser, to obtain witnesses and to retain counsel.

7th
Provides for the right to trial by jury in certain civil cases, according to common law.

8th
Prohibits excessive fines and excessive bail, as well as cruel and unusual punishment.

9th
Protects rights not enumerated in the Constitution.

10th
Reinforces the principle of federalism by stating that the federal government possesses only those powers delegated to it by the states or the people through the Constitution.

11th
Makes states immune from suits from out-of-state citizens and foreigners not living within the state borders; lays the foundation for sovereign immunity.

12th
Revises presidential election procedures.

13th
Abolishes slavery, and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime.

14th
Defines citizenship, contains the Privileges or Immunities Clause, the Due Process Clause, the Equal Protection Clause, and deals with post–Civil War issues.

15th
Prohibits the denial of the right to vote based on race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

16th
Permits Congress to levy an income tax without apportioning it among the states or basing it on the United States Census.

17th
Establishes the direct election of United States Senators by popular vote.

18th
Prohibited the manufacturing or sale of alcohol within the United States.
(Repealed December 5, 1933)

19th
Prohibits the denial of the right to vote based on sex.

20th
Changes the date on which the terms of the President and Vice President (January 20) and Senators and Representatives (January 3) end and begin.

21st
Repeals the 18th Amendment and makes it a federal offense to transport or import intoxicating liquors into US states and territories where such transport or importation is prohibited by the laws of those states and territories.

22nd
Limits the number of times that a person can be elected president: a person cannot be elected president more than twice, and a person who has served more than two years of a term to which someone else was elected cannot be elected more than once.

23rd
Grants the District of Columbia electors (the number of electors being equal to the least populous state) in the Electoral College.

24th
Prohibits the revocation of voting rights due to the non-payment of a poll tax or any other tax.

25th
Addresses succession to the Presidency and establishes procedures both for filling a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, as well as responding to Presidential disabilities.

26th
Prohibits the denial of the right of US citizens, eighteen years of age or older, to vote on account of age.

27th
Delays laws affecting Congressional salary from taking effect until after the next election of representatives.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2017 2:00 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2017 8:29 AM dronestar has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19100
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3 of 10 (800853)
03-01-2017 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by dronestar
02-28-2017 3:35 PM


Re: Article 5 - Amendment
Hey RAZD, you ol' colonialist.

Well I do think that those that grow up in the original 13 states get a better education on the history of the constitutions and the reasoning behind it. Especially the New England states.

Why did you choose the particular fraction: 2/3rds? What's your thinking?

So that amendments going through state legislatures would have the same bar to meet as the ones going through the federal congress. The current 3/4ths seems onerously high.

It could also be 60% for all cases - to match the filibuster threshold in the Senate, but it needs to be more than simple majority so that it is more of a consensus than simple majority

But also as an example that shouldn't be too controversial.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by dronestar, posted 02-28-2017 3:35 PM dronestar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2017 2:26 PM RAZD has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15963
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 4 of 10 (800867)
03-01-2017 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-28-2017 2:00 PM


Re: Article 5 - Amendment
I'd repeal the third amendment to see how long it took anyone to notice.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2017 2:00 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 5 of 10 (800873)
03-01-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
03-01-2017 8:29 AM


Re: Article 5 - Amendment
So that amendments going through state legislatures would have the same bar to meet as the ones going through the federal congress. The current 3/4ths seems onerously high.

If possible, could you express "seems onerously high" in more concrete terms? I believe the ERA could have been ratified under a lower standard, but can you come up with any other positive examples?

In my view, folks are more inclined to do ill rather than good when amending the constitution. For example, based on recent discussion here, there is a lot of hostility to a number of the provisions of the first and fourteenth amendments among certain groups of folks. I don't want the current state legislatures anywhere near being able to tinker with those things.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't trust even well-meaning folks with the power to "Animal Farm" the constitution. The current bargain is not perfect, but its proven flexible enough without amendment to handle most changes although there are some important notable exceptions.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2017 8:29 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2017 3:10 PM NoNukes has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19100
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 6 of 10 (800881)
03-01-2017 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by NoNukes
03-01-2017 2:26 PM


Re: Article 5 - Amendment
If possible, could you express "seems onerously high" in more concrete terms? I believe the ERA could have been ratified under a lower standard, but can you come up with any other positive examples?

Gun control measures like Gabby Giffords & husband Mark Kelly propose with their Americans for Responsible Solutions campaign.

The majority of Americans want better regulations\controls on who can get what types of guns.

In my view, folks are more inclined to do ill rather than good when amending the constitution. ...

I get that, given average intelligence and education, but the problem I have is legislation that is blocked, not because it is bad legislation, but because lobbyists for big corporation buy off politicians and block passage (NRA for instance), so there should be a way for people to work around that.

Perhaps the simple majority in the states (state legislatures or ballot initiatives) should be 60% to pass?

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose, and vote on Amendments to this Constitution, or, by the passage of identical amendments by two thirds of the several States, either by 60% majority vote of the Legislatures of the states or, by the passage by 60% majority vote of Ballot Initiatives in the States, which, in any Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

So the threshold is at least 60% in 2/3rds of the states.

... For example, based on recent discussion here, there is a lot of hostility to a number of the provisions of the first and fourteenth amendments among certain groups of folks. I don't want the current state legislatures anywhere near being able to tinker with those things.

Oh I get that too. Currently (iirc) the GOP is a couple state legislatures shy of having enough to have a constitutional convention. Abortion being a huge issue.

But I also think it is time to review and update the document.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2017 2:26 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2017 6:12 PM RAZD has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2708
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(2)
Message 7 of 10 (800885)
03-01-2017 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-28-2017 2:00 PM


Re: Article 5 - Amendment
The whole thing is gonna be scrapped anyway once Trump is crowned king.
It will be replaced with something new and grate, you will se uuuge improvements, that will bigly effect everyone in a grate way and make america grate permenantly.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2017 2:00 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 8 of 10 (800894)
03-01-2017 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
03-01-2017 3:10 PM


Re: Article 5 - Amendment
but because lobbyists for big corporation buy off politicians and block passage (NRA for instance), so there should be a way for people to work around that.

Do you imagine that lobbyists would be kept away from efforts to amend the constitution while still allowing the people to have access? I don't.

Gun control measures like Gabby Giffords & husband Mark Kelly propose with their Americans for Responsible Solutions campaign.

Do you believe that 2/3 of the legislatures would be in favor of modifying the constitution in a way that might help with gun control measures? How do you keep that process from being corrupted?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2017 3:10 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 03-03-2017 3:59 PM NoNukes has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19100
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 9 of 10 (801172)
03-03-2017 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by NoNukes
03-01-2017 6:12 PM


Re: Article 5 - Amendment
Do you imagine that lobbyists would be kept away from efforts to amend the constitution while still allowing the people to have access? I don't.

Indeed, I would expect a massive ad campaign.

Do you believe that 2/3 of the legislatures would be in favor of modifying the constitution in a way that might help with gun control measures? How do you keep that process from being corrupted?

No I don't, that's why ballot initiatives become important.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2017 6:12 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 03-08-2017 3:58 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 10 of 10 (801668)
03-08-2017 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
03-03-2017 3:59 PM


Re: Article 5 - Amendment
No I don't, that's why ballot initiatives become important.

You didn't propose anything like that. Maybe nationwide people are to be trusted, but I could point to any number of state constitutional provisions that I think are fubar.

I kinda like the idea of a division between constitutional provisions which are extremely difficult to change and statutory ones that can be rewritten or repealed at the popular whim.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 03-03-2017 3:59 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
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