I haven't dropped anything. I've been puzzled from the beginning why if people look like they fit in there should be a problem at all. I've taken detours to try to consider the point of view of those who don't see it that way but I never changed my own basic impression. I still don't get why there is a problem and I still think there may be a problem I'm not able to grasp.
The rest you said is correct. I didn't read Percy's Godzilla attack on me as related to the transgender issue.
I haven't dropped anything. I've been puzzled from the beginning why if people look like they fit in there should be a problem at all.
Well then do you agree that the right-wing's attempt to force people to use bathrooms where they don't look like they fit in by applying legislative power or pressuring school administration is, in fact, authoritarian?
I didn't read Percy's Godzilla attack on me as related to the transgender issue.
There was no attack on you. You are again imagining things. What I did do is criticize your ideas, like your delusion that you're believing something confirms it, or that we're all leftists, or that the left is totalitarian. Stop playing the ad hominem game and start discussing and defending your ideas with actual evidence. Genomicus's reply was entirely apropos in trying to get you to finally understand that both sides have the ability to draw upon low quality highly questionable evidence, but you're the only one here who doesn't realize that and continues using such evidence anyway.
Please stop posting videos where you can't possibly have any idea of the religion or intent of the people shown, or even what is happening. The first people to flee a war zone are women, children and families, while criminals would be the last to leave since they can take advantage of the chaos. We all know and agree that there are terrorists out there, but Europe is not in chaos and terror and hasn't been since World War II. The vacation destinations being cancelled right now are New York, San Francisco and Los Angeles, not London, Paris and Rome, and that's because Trump is scaring the hell out of the world by making the United States seem a frightening and terrifying place.
quote:I've been puzzled from the beginning why if people look like they fit in there should be a problem at all.
I've asked you this question multiple times, Faith.
You've never answered it. Let's see if you can do it this time:
Who determines who "fits in"?
You?
Why are you the standard?
Given that we have many instances of cis women being harassed and arrested for using the women's bathroom because some other person didn't think she "fit in," how do you plan to manage this standard of "fitting in"?
Especially since, for trans people, there is a well-documented history of bigots causing trouble for them including outing them in the bathroom.
Remember: There has *NEVER* been a case of a trans person being arrested in the bathroom for sex crimes. Instead, trans people are usually the victim of crimes against them.
Who determines who "fits in"?
And what will you do when you are declared the person who doesn't "fit in"?
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
Seems obvious enough to me that the person fitting in determines it. IF nobody objects then they've fit in. They know if they can get away with it or not. Many have said here that people have been fitting in for years. That's why I wonder why there's a problem at all. If they don't fit in I suppose that would be other people determining it by freaking out about it.
Seems obvious enough to me that the person fitting in determines it. IF nobody objects then they've fit in. They know if they can get away with it or not. Many have said here that people have been fitting in for years. That's why I wonder why there's a problem at all. If they don't fit in I suppose that would be other people determining it by freaking out about it.
The problem Faith is that the Right and in particular the Christian Right and the current Trump Administration disagree with you and continue to remove protections for LBGT people, reverse current laws, call for Christian support to mandate bathroom use by birth sex and all the other bigotted and utterly stupid positions being forced on Americans today.
The rule that you want, where people use the bathroom where they best "fit in", was pretty much the Obama set of guidelines. Trump issued an executive order rescinding those guidelines. You truly don't see a problem that the guidelines you think made the most sense are now gone?
quote:Seems obvious enough to me that the person fitting in determines it.
That's not an answer, Faith.
Someone walks into a restroom. You think the person doesn't "fit in." I do.
When you call the police, do they listen to you or to me?
Or do they haul you away for harassing a person who was simply using the bathroom?
quote:IF nobody objects then they've fit in.
Why do you get to object? Who is the arbiter of whether or not they "fit in"?
Remember, Faith, cis women have been harassed and arrested for using the women's bathroom. Are you suggesting that they should have know that they wouldn't "fit in" and thus used the men's room? What happens if someone in the men's room thinks they don't "fit in" there? So now where is this person supposed to go?
All it takes is for some busybody to cause trouble and suddenly you're being arrested. This is already happening to cis women who have butch haircuts and don't wear traditionally feminine clothing.
If we don't explicitly protect trans people, they will be subject to discrimination. It would be lovely if we could all just behave like adults and not harass our fellows, but the simple reality is that there will always be people who want to make life difficult for those they don't like.
No, laws won't stop all the problems. We have laws preventing discrimination on the basis of things like race, gender, and religion, and yet those who aren't white, those who aren't male, and those who aren't Christian still get discriminated against. The laws simply allow there to be redress for when it happens (and yes, that means white, male Christians can be discriminated against and also have a means of redress when it happens.)
Why do you think you get to tell someone else that they don't "fit in"?
quote:That's why I wonder why there's a problem at all.
If there's no problem, why are you supporting laws that will do nothing but cause problems?
quote:If they don't fit in I suppose that would be other people determining it by freaking out about it.
But you have demonstrated that you will "freak out" for no reason. So why should we listen to you?
Remember, Faith, cis women have been harassed and arrested for using the women's room because some busybody "freaked out" and called the cops on them.
If you are worried about someone in the bathroom, then it is your burden to not go in there. After all, they're just peeing. You're the one obsessing about their genitalia and inventing scenarios that lead you to "freak out."
Remember, Faith, there have been *ZERO* incidents of a trans person being arrested for a sex crime in a public restroom.
Compare that to the multiple arrests of GOP congresscritters for sex crimes in the bathroom.
The risk of a trans person in the bathroom is that someone like you will "freak out" and violently attack them.
But you want to protect the bully. You want to protect the criminal.
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
As I thought I understood it from what was being said here, people fitting in had been going on for decades. That being the case I can't see why any adjustment in the laws was needed.
The first thing I heard about all this was that the mayor of Houston was putting a law in place to open public restrooms to transgender people. If people had been fitting in for decades why was this necessary?
The first thing I heard about all this was that the mayor of Houston was putting a law in place to open public restrooms to transgender people. If people had been fitting in for decades why was this necessary?
Once again, you heard something completely inaccurate. Houston attempted to pass an anti-discrimination ordinance, that would have, among other things, banned discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. The opposition to this bill attacked it as being a bathroom ordinance allowing men into women's bathrooms even though as you are well aware, transgender folks were already using the bathroom matching their gender identity.
Here is the text of proposition 1.
quote:Are you in favor of the Houston Equal Rights Ordinance, Ord. No. 2014-530, which prohibits discrimination in city employment and city services, city contracts, public accommodations, private employment, and housing based on an individual’s sex, race, color, ethnicity, national origin, age, familial status, marital status, military status, religion, disability, sexual orientation, genetic information, gender identity, or pregnancy?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
You're the one who can't judge the videos, they aren't that difficult. If you don't like what I post suspend me. Otherwise I know what the videos are about even if you don't, so I'll post them. Somebody will get it though you and most others here won't because you don't want to. If you aren't going to suspend me stop complaining about what I post. You are doing what Horowitz described as a Godzilla attack (8:20 - 11:+?), morally denouncing someone instead of arguing a point. You are acting just like all Leftists act on this. Message 157, Message 171, maybe I lost track of one.
quote:As I thought I understood it from what was being said here, people fitting in had been going on for decades.
And for as many decades, trans people have been discriminated against, harassed, and arrested for using the bathroom that matches their gender.
I keep asking you this question and you keep refusing to answer it:
Who decides who "fits in"?
You?
Why do you get to be the arbiter?
quote:That being the case I can't see why any adjustment in the laws was needed.
Because trans people were being arrested for using the correct bathroom because people like you would "freak out."
quote:The first thing I heard about all this was that the mayor of Houston was putting a law in place to open public restrooms to transgender people. If people had been fitting in for decades why was this necessary?
You do realize that those two sentences contradict each other and give the lie to your claim that you don't actually think trans people should be stopped from using the correct bathroom.
First clue: "open public restrooms to transgender people."
That makes it sound like trans people weren't allowed to use the bathroom. No, trans people were always using the bathroom. And so long as people like you didn't "freak out," there was no problem.
However, people like you did "freak out" and call the cops and trans people were routinely arrested for using the correct bathroom.
So Houston passed a law that protected trans people in their right to use the correct bathroom. Actually, to be accurate, that isn't what HERO did directly. Instead, the Houston Equal Rights Ordinance simply prevented discrimination on the bases of sex, race, color, ethnicity, national origin, age, familial status, marital status, military status, religion, disability, sexual orientation, genetic information, gender identity, or pregnancy.
It applied to businesses that serve the public, private employers, housing, city employment and city contracting. Religious institutions would be considered exempt as would private clubs. Violators could be fined up to $5,000.
You will note that there is no mention of bathrooms in the ordinance. However, because discrimination against people on the basis of gender identity was outlawed, that means that trans people cannot be arrested for using the correct bathroom.
Which is what was happening.
So tell us what your solution is, Faith. A person goes into the bathroom. You "freak out" and call the cops because you don't think they "fit in," but I do. The cops show up. What happens next if...
1) ...there is no law providing guidance on the rights of people based on gender identity? 2) ...there is a law outlawing discrimination on the basis of gender identity? 3) ...there is a law mandating discrimination on the basis of gender identity?
As we have already seen, the first case results in trans people being arrested. Not all, but many as it will depend upon the whim of the police officer.
In the second case, the trans person is not arrested because they are protected from discrimination simply because they used the correct bathroom.
In the third case, the trans person is required to be arrested for using the correct bathroom.
So what is your solution, Faith? Should a trans person be arrested for using the correct bathroom?
What does your "freak out" status have to do with anything? Why does your mental state get to infringe upon the rights of others?
Do trans people have the right to use public bathrooms?
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
Are you incapable of doing your own homework? Wait...that would mean looking at references that weren't Fox/Breitbart/Infowars/Stormfront, so that means no.
HERO was passed in the summer of 2014.
There was then a referendum in November of 2015 to rescind it.
quote:So nothing should have changed about people being able to fit into whatever bathroom they prefer, no?
No. Texas has no laws protecting people from discrimination on the basis of gender identity. The bigger cities in Texas do (San Antonio, Dallas, Austin, Fort Worth, and Plano, to name a few...Dallas, Austin, and Fort Worth for more than a decade) and Houston decided to follow suit.
People like you then "freaked out" that protecting people from discrimination on the basis of gender identity would mean that trans people could no longer be arrested for using the correct bathroom when they "freaked out."
So what's your solution, Faith? A person goes into the bathroom (after all, you have no way to know if they are trans or cis) and you "freak out" and call the cops. What should happen next?
1) If there is no law regarding protection on the basis of gender identity, what does the cop do? 2) If there is a law outlawing discrimination on the basis of gender identity, what does the cop do? 3) If there is a law mandating discrimination on the basis of gender identity, what does the cop do?
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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