EvC Forum: What's the difference between Islam and Radical Islam?

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Topic: What's the difference between Islam and Radical Islam?

New Cat's Eye

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Message 27 of 146 (801599)
03-08-2017 10:24 AM

Reply to: Message 9 by Modulous
03-07-2017 8:35 PM

Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?

Sorry, did I say Muslims? I meant to say Jews all along.

I agree that we shouldn't forget those things, but do you have anything a little more contemporary? Like, that isn't almost 80 years old?

'Cause that would be a little more comparable.

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	Message 9 by Modulous, posted 03-07-2017 8:35 PM		Modulous has replied

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New Cat's Eye

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Message 32 of 146 (801612)
03-08-2017 1:20 PM

Reply to: Message 30 by Modulous
03-08-2017 1:06 PM

Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?

Does it make it easier to recognize radical religious groups and the environments that spawn them if they are less than 50 years ago or something?

I dunno, but it makes them more relevant.

What's the point of comparing dead jews to modern muslims?

Also, some of the examples happened in the last year (for instance forcing religious modesty norms on women, segregation on planes, spitting at little girls and calling them whores).

That's almost as bad as murdering people...

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	Message 30 by Modulous, posted 03-08-2017 1:06 PM		Modulous has replied

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	Message 33 by Modulous, posted 03-08-2017 1:37 PM		New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye

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Message 40 of 146 (801626)
03-08-2017 2:06 PM

Reply to: Message 33 by Modulous
03-08-2017 1:37 PM

Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?

To what?

The, according to the OP, issue that keeps coming up.

What's the deal with all these radical muslims?

"The jews were bad too 80 years ago" doesn't seem very relevant to me.

I'm comparing radical and violent religiopolitical views and actions.

You disguised a bunch of jewish violence as being muslim and then made it a big joke.

Sorry for not getting it.

Because the topic is about the difference between non radical and radical Islam I thought it useful to show the difference between another religious group that has had radical and violent elements in it.

That seems disingenuous, but I suppose it could be a fruitful effort. So, what?

The time those elements existed hardly seems particularly relevant.

Depends on the goal, but I suppose I'm missing the point.

I know, right?

Sorry, the pic is blocked. I'll see it later.

It's almost as if when some people go around saying that when Muslim immigrants do these things it is evidence of Islamic migration is destroying our culture are engaging in hyperbole and fearmongering. Damn - it's almost if I was trying to set that kind of point up by utilizing a group Conservatives are less inclined to criticize.

Well it went over my head.

And I still don't how 80 year old jewish violence should matter in a discussion about muslim violence today.

"There's some muslims being bad, what's that about?"
"Yeah, well the jews were bad too!"
"Okay, so there's some muslims being bad, what's that about?"

quote:
A Muslim could say that we should treat women equally, but that isn't anything that is inherent to Islam.

Ask Pastor Stephen Anderson and you'll find him saying that it isn't a tenet of Christianity. Ask the Haredi jews and you'll see they say that isn't a tenet of Judaism.

Radical!

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	Message 33 by Modulous, posted 03-08-2017 1:37 PM		Modulous has replied

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	Message 42 by Modulous, posted 03-08-2017 2:19 PM		New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye

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Message 68 of 146 (801757)
03-09-2017 12:30 PM

Reply to: Message 42 by Modulous
03-08-2017 2:19 PM

Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?

And I still don't how 80 year old jewish violence should matter in a discussion about muslim violence today.

‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’

Understanding why humans acted before matters when trying to understand why they are acting in a similar way today. Is this point really that subtle?

"They're both terrorism" doesn't mean that understanding one will be helpful for the other. What, in particular, about the Irgun is applicable to today's muslim terrorists and how will understanding that help us combat this?

Have you ever noticed that religious extremists always seem to have temporal grievances like territorial and community safety/integrity concerns at their root, rather than a specific religion?

Maybe that's what the 'deal is' with 'all these radical muslims'?

I wouldn't say "always", but yeah, it's usually there.

Are you saying that islam doesn't have a higher penchant for terrorism?

Or that we don't have a particular problem today?

The entire point was that some people wouldn't get it, so that I could explain to them that the takeaway of Irgun should not be Judaism is intrinsically bad, and can erupt in violence at any time therefore we should be fearful and suspicious of Jews but instead that socio-political forces can turn people violent and their religion is merely a framework they use to justify their violence. So don't apologize, thank you for taking the step that allowed me to do this.

Neither me nor the OP are not saying that islam is intrinsically bad.

My point wasn't that 'the jews were bad too 80 years ago'. My point was, as I said, to highlight what the deal with radical religious types is. Political context, social forces of a certain time and place. That stuff that we use today to understand the Irgun's and IRA's of yesterday.

Do you think that if we proverbially "got off their lawn" that everything would then be okay? No more islamic terrorism?

What about when Sharia is the goal?

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	Message 42 by Modulous, posted 03-08-2017 2:19 PM		Modulous has replied

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	Message 70 by Modulous, posted 03-09-2017 5:30 PM		New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye

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Message 75 of 146 (801901)
03-10-2017 9:48 AM

Reply to: Message 70 by Modulous
03-09-2017 5:30 PM

Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?

I don't see why learning about what causes groups to resort to terrorism won't help us.

It wouldn't help if we are wrongly assuming they are all the same.

Irgun were fighting for territorial rights, self-determination, autonomy and so on. The Muslim terrorists say the same thing.

The Muslim terrorists say other things too. Like bringing Sharia to the whole world. I didn't see anything like that from the Jews.

Irgun more or less vanished with the formation of Israel - at least one of the terrorist group's leaders became Prime Minister of Israel. So we could consider that giving the Muslims at least some of what their extremists want may be an idea to destroy the motivation to terrorise. We could consider the IRA and how they were given certain compromises with autonomy, sovereignty, amnesty. They essentially got their own parliament, their own executive branch. IRA leaders have (allegedly) become politicians (eg., Gerry Adams).

We spent years with soldiers in Ireland, with forces in Israel. That made things worse. Perhaps we might consider what has worked in the past to our solutions for the future?

For sure, I'm open to anything,

Most terrorist recruitment, most martyr videos are primarily focussed on territorial and political concerns. The 'get of our lawn' type justifications. Killing Americans won't result in the institution of Sharia law in America - that's not most terrorist's ambition at all. Obviously there are crazy Christian terrorists and Muslim terrorists that will always think they can achieve their goals through some insane gesture - but finding a political solution, probably one that nobody is happy with but which increases the number of people that can 'live with it' is the first and probably biggest step that will have the most significant impact.

I haven't really dug into it that deep, but you're probably right.

Thanks for the info.

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	Message 70 by Modulous, posted 03-09-2017 5:30 PM		Modulous has replied

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	Message 76 by jar, posted 03-10-2017 10:10 AM	New Cat's Eye has replied
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New Cat's Eye

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Message 77 of 146 (801908)
03-10-2017 10:30 AM

Reply to: Message 76 by jar
03-10-2017 10:10 AM

Re: Radical Islam - a threat to our way of life?

NCE writes:

The Muslim terrorists say other things too. Like bringing Sharia to the whole world. I didn't see anything like that from the Jews.

There is a reason for that. Islam and Christianity are proselytizing religions, they both seek to expand the member base. Judaism is quite different. It is a separatist/isolationist/non-recruiting religion. You become a Jew by birth rather than conversion.

Yeah, that's part of the reason why I don't see "the Jews are bad too" as being very helpful in combating Islamic (or even Christian) terrorism.

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	Message 76 by jar, posted 03-10-2017 10:10 AM		jar has seen this message but not replied

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